News / Site Changes

  • posix%s's Photo



                                    

    Site Changes

                                    

    The following are changes we have decided to implement because we believe the site will benefit from them. At first glance, some of them may seem counter-productive, but not when looking at the big picture.



    ♦ Closing of the 'Concept Creation' Accolade Category



    Today we announce the closing of the Concept Creation category. We think Concept Creations (CCs) should be closed because they have to be distinguished by their concept, which lies in the view and understanding of an individual person, in most cases an admin. Therefore, it can be easily misinterpreted. We also found that most of the CCs we have are better fit in the 'Spotlight' or 'Design' category. For instance, Sunrise Bay Ballpark, Gamez, Magic World - Indoor Paradise and Pleasure Point could, or in fact should, all be Bronze or Silver Winners. We don't see a reason why they would not be eligible for these accolades. Yet we see no sense in separating them into CCs, a category Corkscrewed had quickly thought up and Kumba later implemented because they didn't know how to categorize certain submissions so they went with how they personally see RCT creations and how they interpret concepts. From the admins side, this is no easy thing to do, therefore splitting up the then existent accolade categories was an easy way to solve this. Moving on, House of Happiness and Escher Island are typical, good, fantasy creations. We think they should stand a chance at winning Bronze, Silver, Gold and also Spotlight. These accolades should not be limited to submissions that strictly follow a 'Park' concept. It feels like forcing our members to follow building concepts and conventions that are not necessary and instead will only hinder their creativity. We're also concerned that without this a too strong bias towards realistic style parkmaking exists, simply because 'Parks' are conceptually originating from real-life.



    Then you have other CCs like Quiahuitl that should be a Design. The reason why it was not eligible for Design back when it was submitted was because Designs were, again, suffering from a conceptual limit, the requirement that they had to be coaster layouts and must not be water rides. We believe it's bad to uphold this kind of requirement and are therefore broadening the Design category into accepting any kind of ride design, be it a coaster, water ride or a giant custom ride like I remember Corkscrew used to do them. We just don't want to limit people into our categories anymore. We have done it for a long time and are continuously having problems with it. Every month you see a release where people reply "this should have been a design," or "this has more than one coaster, it should have been a Bronze or Silver winner because it is a mini park". The problem is: where do you draw the line? Does the additional coaster count as surrounding or its own ride? Every single member will decide this for himself. We believe the point of defining something as fantasy, park, design, etc. is not reliable and never objective. Thus, we do not want to operate it any longer.



    The few submissions we receive to justify this accolade category are mostly RCTNW's creations. But again, we see no reason why a resort or stadium he builds could not be a Silver or Gold Winner. The only problem are people's expectations and strong focus on a park concept that has established itself in their minds over years. As mentioned though, we believe it's harmful for the community and especially the creative freedom of our members.



    To summarize: an accolade category ideally should not be linked to a specific concept because concepts are vague and interpretable in too many different ways to find a solid ground of agreement for everybody. Also, categorizing accolades too much is forcing creators to follow what the category demands. Winners of previous CCs will not be stripped from their accolade, and will remain CC winners, but the category is closed to new submissions. We would also like to mention that we believe the very same problem exists for the Design category and in order to truly fulfill the idea of no limitations at all would mean to have only one accolade category for all submissions alike. However, we have refrained from imposing this as we see the Design category too rooted in our site's culture to change it just yet.






    ♦ New Policy on Winning Spotlight


    The changes regarding the rules of winning Spotlight are threefold.

    (1) The required map size of 115x115 tiles is being removed.
    We had long been unhappy about this rule because map size is an indicator that can easily be faked. Think of small creations that have been placed in the middle of a 250x250 map. Technically, if we received a submission like this and it would achieve a high enough score, it would then also pass the 115x115 requirement although in reality the park is not that big. Other examples would be water, trees, or most prominently, black tiles. In latter three cases, you also have to decide whether water or trees act merely as a filler or instead are a legit part of the creation. We found this to be too subjective.



    Around the time of Head-2-Head 5 we had the idea to instead use the 'effectively built on tiles' measure. We were hoping that this would indicate park quantity more reliably. However, we soon realized it, too, had flaws. First, the problem of deciding what is filler and what is not still remains. Second, if someone was to build something using several stories on his map, the effectively built on tiles could not account for the actual quantity built. It would understate it a lot. Finally, this measure proved to be very tedious to come up with and in many cases could only be guessed because we had to count tiles by hand and using a stretched out land tool which isn't very effective.



    Next, we tried to use 8cars' Count Objects > Map Data feature. We were hoping it would give us the desired park quantity measurement and collected data for a couple of parks and designs. We noticed that it rewarded highly detailed creations with tons of objects placed on them much more than parks with a more opened and sparse object placement. Any land tool sculpturing such as jagged rocks would not be counted by the map data measurements if it did not have any objects placed onto it like trees or shrubs. Finally, we faced two more problems with this: (a) The fact that there was no trainer capable of calculating the same info about map data for RCT1 and (B) the problem of how to possibly explain this process and requirement to the community in a simple way so that people would understand what they need to do in order for their creation to be spotlight eligible. We thus discarded this idea.



    In the end, the conclusion we arrived at was to use no map size, map quantity, map density, park amount, etc. at all. Instead we realized that a high 'RCT quantity' in a submission is appreciated as a performance by the panelists and thus automatically voted higher than smaller creations. However, we were worried that without a map size requirement it could allow parks too small to win spotlight. We therefore decided to change two more things described as (2) and (3):





    (2) The minimum score for a spotlight submission to become a 'Spotlight Candidate' is increased from 14.00 to 16.00.
    We noticed that all of our three spotlights, Magic Realms Resort, Silver Valley Theme Park and Zippo's Wacky World of Wonders had a score of at least 17.00 and none of them seemed to come close to failing to the minimum 60% Spotlight Score from the additional 'Spotlight - Yes / No' vote.
    We therefore began to guess that as soon as the score was high enough, the spotlight decision was redundant. To compensate for the no longer existent minimum size requirement, and because in the Spotlight category we go in intervals of +2 per score between the available accolades (see our new score bar to the left), we decided it would be reasonable to increase the minimum score for a submission to be eligible for the Yes/No vote to 16.00. However, since only three spotlights meant rather little data to base this new rule on, we took other creations that had received a score of at least 16.00, namely Snowdrift (16.31) and Canthose Valley Theme Park (17.62), and asked a few panelists if they would have voted 'Yes' in case this park had been a regular spotlight submission. Most of the people we asked told us they would vote 'No', yet we were still worried that we would leave room for too small parks winning spotlights. We decided the rules had to be tightened just a bit more to truly be reliable.




    (3) The 'Spotlight Score' is being increased from 60% to 70%.
    The Spotlight Score can be seen as the consensus among the panelist in how far they agree that a Gold winner in question should also win Spotlight or not. Since we want to be sure from now on that there will be little debate if a Gold winner is deserving of Spotlight or not, we decided to increase the minimum Spotlight Score to 70%. This rounds up the changes for the spotlight winning regulations.


    In sum, what is demanded of a Spotlight Winner is a whole lot and we hope that these new rules will guarantee a Spotlight park is as deserving and mindblowing as people think it needs to be.






    ♦ Submissions going up in the Accolade Panel are no longer made anonymous before posting


    This change is due to the following reasons:

    1. We believe it is better if panelists see the park in its original form. Up until now we have been removing custom messages, staff that were named after creators or contributors to the project, flower or land texture designs that either represented the full name or the initials of the creator and similar hints worked into the park that held the creator information. However, all of these things are part of the creative outlet the creator(s) of a park add to their project and we feel it is wrong to take them away. Panelists must not miss out on these things.

    2. It's not easy to make a park anonymous. Staff cannot be sacked at once in either game, nor can we look into every hidden corner of a park to find a possible indicator of the creator's identity. It's much too time consuming and we often miss out on one or two banners, names in the readme, shop or ride title.

    3. As admins, we take care of all the steps from submission to release will have a much easier life when having to deal with only one file instead of two per submission. This will make our work flow faster which will benefit everyone at NE.

    4. Perhaps the most striking reason is because we are powerless over inside information panelists may have about submissions. Hardly anyone submits anything of which he hasn't posted a screenshot in the AD or in the Dump Place topic before. Our panelists are people who visit the site regularly and we think it's safe to assume they know what's happening quite well. So in many cases, although we went through the trouble of getting something to be anonymous, they will know who made the park anyway, simply because they recognize it from the screens that were posted beforehand.

    5. Finally, we trust our panelists to always vote objectively to not let themselves be influenced by a name attached to a new submission arriving in the panel.



    This rounds up all of the changes we wanted to announce today. Thanks for reading this far and for telling us your opinion on any of this by replying. Onto more thriving and exciting RCT Parkmaking Culture!
  • SSSammy%s's Photo
    glad this has been clarified, gents.
    i await healthy discussion :)
  • Casimir%s's Photo
    amen.
    Seriously, those are the most reasonable changes this site has experienced in a long time.
  • Ozone%s's Photo
    I appreciate the thought that went into these changes, and the time it took to inform the community. They all seem reasonable and good to me.
  • Splitvision%s's Photo
    I agree, this allows more freedom in RCT2 creations. Now a park don't have to be either a concept or an actual park, it can be a mix or something completely different. I also agree on the new spotlight rules, it should be very hard to win one. It feels good to know that you put so much time, thought and effort into improving this site.
  • Xcoaster%s's Photo
    I strongly agree with the CC changes. I also agree that some work needs to be done to better clarify designs vs parks, but it's not a big issue.

    The spotlight change is new to me, but seems reasonable. I wasn't a big fan of the size limit for the reasons listed (115x115 seemed arbitrary, I'd thought WME's Mount Doom deserved a shot at spotlight, and counting tiles is a pain).

    And the previous attempt to keep entries anonymous seemed silly, so I'm happy with that too.
  • Luketh%s's Photo
    Good changes!
  • gir%s's Photo
    Overall these are very good changes in my opinion. Much thanks to the admins for their time and effort put into this website. :)
  • FullMetal%s's Photo
    All the changes make sense in my book.

    I will miss the CC category, though... So are all tracked rides eligible for a Design accolade? I think that needs just a bit more clarification. I mean, coasters, water rides, or hacked go karts (like Hockenheimring) are understandable, but I don't see how a car ride could be considered for a Design.

    Like the admins said, Designs are too deeply rooted in NE culture to be gotten rid of, but I also think their too deeply rooted to be altered either. I think there needs to be a bit more information on the admins decision to remove the CC accolade, and how that will affect other accolades.
  • Kumba%s's Photo
    Phil please check facts instead of making them up. CC was Corkscrewed's idea and I thought it was good, so we added it with NE3.

    Im alright with all the changes, might have only gone to 15.00 for spotlight scores tho. So yeah good work guys, just work on the fact checking ;)
  • Stoksy%s's Photo
    What were the original scores that somone had to get to receive a gold or silver, as I remember the original spotlight score, and I know that the bronze is the same.

    Just wondering also, will all the spotlights stay even though their score was less than the 16 now required.
  • SSSammy%s's Photo

    All the changes make sense in my book.

    I will miss the CC category, though... So are all tracked rides eligible for a Design accolade? I think that needs just a bit more clarification. I mean, coasters, water rides, or hacked go karts (like Hockenheimring) are understandable, but I don't see how a car ride could be considered for a Design.

    Like the admins said, Designs are too deeply rooted in NE culture to be gotten rid of, but I also think their too deeply rooted to be altered either. I think there needs to be a bit more information on the admins decision to remove the CC accolade, and how that will affect other accolades.


    if you read it, it says "...and are therefore broadening the Design category into accepting any kind of ride design, be it a coaster, water ride or a giant custom ride like I remember Corkscrew used to do them."
    just like if a coaster design is too weak, it wont win.
    if the car ride design is good enough, it will win design.
    so if it doesnt win that, how would it be any more likely to win CC?

    also, why did you think posix (?) wrote this, if not to clarify everything? ive had the honour to be in a couple of the conversations when the admins and co were discussing these changes, and i think posix explained this perfectly.
    read it again, and you will find perfectly rational explainations to everything. if not, point out something you dont understad and we will help you to understand.

    overall, i think you did a fantastic job, i think it was posix that wrote this, certainly is an achievement
  • RRP%s's Photo
    Great to see things becoming more flexible allowing for more creativity
  • Liampie%s's Photo
    These changes sound really good to me! However i'm not sure about the minimal spotlight score being 16.00. This score is based on the three 'modern' spotlights you mentioned, but I think three spotlights is too few to draw conclusions. I think raising the 60% barrier to 70% should be enough.

    Thanks a lot for being such a good management, anyway! :)


    Congratulations on your third spotlight! ;)

    Edited by Liampie, 10 October 2009 - 05:52 AM.

  • J K%s's Photo
    I think all changes are very good and well thought out.

    It will also make the process of submitting something to being released a lot more efficient. Thats a very good thing in my eyes and I can't wait to see the future releases with this easy system.

    Also Spotlight going up to 16/70% consensus is a very good thing. That just proves any spotlight will be amazing.
  • 5dave%s's Photo
    Thanks for the statement!
    I agree with all the points, I never understood why you made the submissions anonymous anyways.

    But I have to say that the design score bar is a bit too low ATM, but raising the bar means also that some of older designs wouldn't be designs anymore and that would be a bit too complicated in the end.

    "MFG"
  • Levis%s's Photo
    haven't had time to read it all. but I think most of the things you discussed are in here so they are good changes ;) .
    I hope to be able to give you a "effectively build on tiles" once.
    good changes in the CC. now I can submit HHA (Horrific Hazard Aftermath)
  • posix%s's Photo
    dave, raising the req score for designs will only transpose the votings, we have observed. if we changed it from 13 to 14, panelists who believe something they see is worth design will use the required score as a base.
  • Mike Robbins%s's Photo
    I think these changes are good EXCEPT the anonymous submissions. I would believe that 90% of the submissions are posted in the forums anyway BUT if someone wants to submit anonymously, they should be able to. My last submission had no mention of my name, my previous style or trademarks (example: "Merlin - 1999 Arrow" as a ride name for a coaster instead of just "Merlin") but AFTER I submitted it, I released screenshots which I think hurt my score. I'm pretty sure judges will judge parks based on whos work they like and disslike. So if a member chooses to submit anonymous, that should be granted as long as there's no indication of who built it.

    I also think the panel should be overhauled. No offense to the newer members of the community, but some of them seem too new to be judging parks of long established members. I would think a judge would be experienced, be Spotlight winners, been in the community longer than just a couple of years and even release ANY work. Too many judges seem to inexperienced. I've been in the community since 1999 and played the game from its initial release, probably longer than anyone here and had parks downloaded by the 1000's (the original Seven Wonders of the World when I was a staff member at Cav's RCT Depot clocked in over 10,000 downloads in less than a month). I think I would be a good candidate for a judge except I don't have RCT2 expansion packs, and RCT3 (which I won't discourage people from using those, but should be omited from submissions) nor the time to look at so many parks all the time. In short, panel members should be more experienced members.
  • SSSammy%s's Photo
    alright, some guy gave you a two, we know, we feel sorry for you, get over it, stop taking it out on the whole panel.


    a panel like your ideal couldnt exist in reality, thats why n00bs like me are in it.

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