General Chat / Science and Christianity

For background information to this topic, please see page 3 of "Favorite Posts" in the game & Polls forum. Louis! asked for a separate thread so I'll oblige.





Now to start, allow me to admit a large mistake on my part by sharing my religious beliefs in a somewhat aggressive tone. The Bible asks Christians to share their faith in love, and not repay evil with evil. I do not take back any of my words regarding the Bible, but as I said, my tone was unnecessary so I ask that you forgive me as I'll conduct myself much more kindly and respectfully. I also ask that all who post in this thread would do so in a respectful manner to all others. I'm not here to beat people up, and this topic can be for everyone wishing to debate in a friendly way. To clarify the topic, this thread could be considered a debate between evolution and Christianity. I love science, but I don't believe in evolution. Now to continue..



around where the other thread left off:

Playing the Hitler card isn't debating.


And yes, when you argue like a Jehovah's Witness, you'll be treated like those cultists, too.

If you mean I argued aggressively, you're right that I was in the wrong and as seen, I have apologized. For the record, you're also correct that Jehovah's Witnesses are indeed a 'cult'. I'm happy you see that, though also for the record, I am not Jehovah's Witness, obviously, but I am Christian. More specifically; Calvinist Christian. Though we believe in things such as 'predestination' and the sovereignty of God and hold a high view of the Bible as supreme authority, the very heart of our belief is the Gospel itself (The work of Christ Jesus).

About the Hitler thing, it's just hard for me to believe he got off for his actions without any sort of punishment. I don't feel I was simply "playing a card", but attempting to make a point that it is of my belief there are consequences for sin.





Midnight Aurora's response to me calling the full Bible 'The authoritative word of God':

Unless you read from the untranslated version of the Bible, you're an idiot.

Please don't argue with just "you're an idiot" adding nothing to the debate, anything to back it up, and hate filled words. Also, I'd love to here about your knowledge on the Bible, though I honestly don't believe there is much of this knowledge in you. I respect your intelligence and think of you as a smart man, but regarding the Bible, since my conversion to Christianity two years ago (which I admit, I haven't shown myself to be the best example of a Christian at this site, but my knowledge of the Bible, theology etc. has always been building, and as for my conduct, this is improving I believe), I've spent many hours studying (not only the Bible but also Biblical commentaries and much other Biblical Christian literature), undergoing discipleship training, and sitting under the preaching of a strong Christian church which teaches nothing but the Bible and is free of any gimmicks or fluff. As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong), I don't think you've spent much time reading the Bible.

As for the Bible itself, I mostly read an 'English Standard Version' study Bible (ESV) which is an "essentially literal" translation of the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts. It places an emphasis on 'word-for-word' correspondence while at the same time taking into account differences of grammar, syntax, and idiom between current literary English and the original languages.



Now to my belief of the Bible as the authoritative word of God:



"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness," - 2 Timothy 3:16

This verse is part of a letter written by the Apostle Paul from a Roman prison to his friend, a preacher named 'Timothy' whom Paul had taken under his wing. "All Scripture" here refers to the Old Testament as well as what was written of the New Testament as of a date which is purposed by today's Bible scholars to be between 64 and 65 a.d. (shortly before Paul's death which is purposed to have occurred around 68 a.d.). Though "All Scripture" would later come to be understood as the entire cannons of both the OT and NT. Paul coined the term "theopneustos" (Greek) which comes from words meaning "God" and "Breathed" and is meant to stress divine origin and thus, the authority of Scripture. Paul's intention is not to point to the various authors of the books of the Bible as simply inspired people, but that the writings themselves are the words spoken ("breathed out") by God. Basically, The Bible presents itself, first and foremost, as the Word of the Lord, given to man through chosen recipients and transmitters of 'divine redemptive revelation'. It goes deeper, but this post is already going to be long enough. I'm sure you get the basic jest though.



With that said...



"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John 1:1

Here, The term "the Word" ('Logos' in Greek) conveys the notion of divine self-expression or speech. It shows God's Word as effective in such ways as how when God 'speaks' things come into being (Genesis 1:1-3 "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light."). It also shows that through God's speech, he relates to his people (Example: Genesis 15:1 "... the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision: "Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great."")

Though I'll try not to get into too much detail of how this verse is the building blocks of the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Three 'persons' of the God-Head all equally God and there is only one God. More on this later.), it's important, so before going to the next portion of my post, I'll briefly explain how this verse means to show Jesus as the eternal, pre-existent, now incarnate Word (John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."), Jesus is God-incarnate, the exact imprint of the nature of God The Father, and he is God, sent from The Father God, and he has walked the Earth, and he has always existed. If reading further in John, It also shows how God, The Father carried out his creative works through The Son, Jesus (John 1:3 "All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made."). (The Holy Spirit is later mentioned in John, referred to as a helper (mostly referred to as a helper to Christians in their 'growth' and becoming more and more like Jesus (sanctification) and the Holy Spirit also declared as God (don't confuse this as me saying since Christians have the Holy Spirit, they themselves are some kind of god.). I understand the Trinity is hard to comprehend, and perhaps human minds are incapable of fully grasping it, but it is something you just have to believe in as a Christian. (though the Bible does state much more I haven't mentioned).

Also on the Word of God: (It is important not to change, twist, add or take away from Scripture) In the garden of Eden, Satan displayed his readiness to come as an angel of light, raising doubt about God's authoritative Word and twisting that Word to his own advantage (Genesis 3:1, 4-5). In the wilderness temptation, the Second Adam (Jesus) confronted Satan with what stands written in Deuteronomy (Mathew 4:4). When in turn Satan ventured to quote the written Word in the Psalms in a biased way (Mathew 4:6), Jesus did not respond by resorting to some higher authority, as no appeal transcends Scripture as the authoritative divine word; rather, he thwarted Satan by twice more facing him with the unchangeable written Word of God (Mathew 4:7, 4:10).

So, with it established as God writing the Scriptures by speaking through chosen people, and the Scriptures showing God as the creator of the world through his son (Jesus) and what would later in the Bible show Jesus as the redeemer and savior through 'the good news' (The Gospel; which I really haven't got deep into here (not to mention I haven't really gotten into the differences between what is known as 'the old covenant' and 'the new covenant') but I'm just stating how it's my belief and how Jesus is my salvation and how my heart now desires to obey God (by obeying and believing his words in the Bible) this is why I, and fellow Christians, call the Bible the 'Authoritative Word of God', also seeing how the more one reads the Bible, the more it affirms itself.

In Conclusion: The Bible is the authority because God is the authority. And who are we to say to our creator and thus ruler what should and should not be done?


I tried to be as brief as I could here, but it goes so deep and honestly, I've barely scratched the surface. Though, one final thing...



"For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope". - Romans 15:4

This verse brings me hope and comfort as a child of God. I'd appreciate if people didn't persecute me for my beliefs, much like how in many foreign countries to the USA; Bibles are banned and people who profess Christ are imprisoned or even killed. If you do not believe the words of the Bible, so be it. But please don't curse me out and say hateful things to me because of the hope and salvation this book gives me. Believe in evolution if you must, though I would prefer you didn't because of what the Bible has to say about it, but it's not my job to save souls. It's the Lords job. All I can do is pray for you and share what the word of God has to say. Just understand, The Bible states there is a God, and he uses his people to share his Love and message of hope. I'm not your enemy, I'm your friend, and believe it or not, I care for each person on this Earth. So I bless you all, even if more persecution is to follow here.





(Any questions of any kind are welcome. I'll do my best to answer.)



Now, feel free to debate with anything you may have to say. Please just keep it respectful and friendly as I feel I have.

I have some questions:

1. What makes your god any different from the others?

2. Why does God allow so much suffering? As Epicurus put it...

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

3. Can God make a stone so heavy he cannot lift it?

4. Why do you reject evolution for a hypothesis with no evidence?

5. Do you believe everything in the Bible to be true?

6. Did your parents raise you to be religious?

Science:Religion :: Hammers:Wrenches

Just saying.

-ACE

Let me know how many people you convince with your Jehova's Witness style of preaching.

Personally, I used to be a Christian but over the last few years I have grown more and more Atheist. There is just so much that doesn't make sense to me now, I just don't think God exists. I know humans aren't perfect but if God loves everybody, why would fundamentalists spread the word that God "hates" anyone who isn't heterosexual. I know not everyone is like that, but I have seen people do this.

Also, in the Bible it states Jesus did not commit sin, when that is not true. In the temple, he turned over tables, effectively commenting violence. He did it for the lack of respect for God, but he still did it.

I just feel that faith is a way that humans use to feel comfort that someone otherworldly looks after and loves them, and that in the next 50 years as science progresses the percentage of the world population that are Theist will decline rapidly. What will happen if extraterrestrial life is discovered? That may be far off but it is still a possibility (The Drake Equation) and the Bible does not contain anything to explain this.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, and I respect anyone who believes differently

ldw

I have some questions:

1. what makes your god any different from the others?

My God is the God of 'The Bible'. The Trinity of God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit. He is a living breathing God who relates to his people rather than idols which neither speak nor act. And Rather than a God of false doctrine such as other religions. Though what really differs between my God and others, is that it's not about a 'religion' but a 'relationship' (through prayer, meditation and reading the Bible). Not to mention Christ Jesus, dying on the cross to satisfy the wrath of God for the sins of his people, then defeating death by raising from the dead three days later.

2. why does god allow so much suffering? As Epicurus put it...

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

suffering in the world is the result of Sin. When Adam and Eve ate from 'the tree of the knowledge of good and evil' when God commanded they do not do (which was a dire sin considering Adam and Eve desiring to be like God), the curse of 'death' was put on the World. Understand, just as how there's punishments for crimes by law enforcement, how much greater the punishment for sinning against and disobeying a righteous and just God? If he is our creator, so too is he our ruler and judge. Have hope though, this is why he sent Jesus, to save sinners. Also, giving us his Word for understanding to God, and answering questions such as yours. Trust me, my words are extremely insuffecient compared to God's. Allow me to recommend picking up a Bible and starting in the book of John?

3. can god make a stone so heavy he cannot lift it?

Tricky question. I'll just have to state there is no improving or changing God. He is completely without fault or error. He is so transcendent, his ways unsearchable. He is the Alpha and Omega who is eternal. There is no before him and no after him. He knows every star by name. So it's more a matter of it is impossible for anything greater than God. God couldn't create anything better than himself because he is already, has and always will be the very best, he is perfect. Otherwise, he wouldn't be God.

4. why do you reject evolution for a hypothesis with no evidence?

Because as previously stated I believe in 'the authoritative Word of God'. And there is plenty of evidence out there for Biblical events and people. I also reject it because I believe I am a sinner who was in need of a savior. Evolution and Jesus don't mix. Also, there is so much out there on the Biblical texts and how the book came to be complete by the forth century a.d. Why do you reject God without reading what he has to say in his word? (The Bible). Not to mention, becoming a Christian was a life changing event for me. My heart changed from a Satan-obsessed blasphemer and people hater to a God-fearing, Bible reading people lover. also, "For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith". (Romans 1:17) The Lord has given me faith, and I am saved by grace through faith.

5. why do you pick and choose which parts of the bible are and aren't true?

Please point out where you believe I ever indicated such a thing. I believe the full Bible is true and every single verse is vital as and to every single other verse to form it as a complete whole with nothing to be added or taken away.

6. did your parents raise your to be religious?

My Mom was and is Christian and attempted to raise me as one myself while I responded with complete rebellion at some points getting into Satan worship, self-mutilation and and overall completely anti-God life and mind. I was also diagnosed with severe mental conditions (schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, social anxiety disorder) though my heart and mind went through a gradual transformation I credit completely to God as I developed a curiosity for God, truth, reality etc. while realizing my horrid condition as a wretched sinner and in dire need of a savior. I soon after decided to begin attending the church I now faithful attend every week and hearing the Word of God preached, brought me repentance and faith. So my parents had nothing to do with my beliefs. God saved me, not them.



I have to go to work. I'll respond more to the rest of you later.

My God is the God of 'The Bible'. The Trinity of God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit. He is a living breathing God who relates to his people rather than idols which neither speak nor act. And Rather than a God of false doctrine such as other religions. Though what really differs between my God and others, is that it's not about a 'religion' but a 'relationship' (through prayer, meditation and reading the Bible). Not to mention Christ Jesus, dying on the cross to satisfy the wrath of God for the sins of his people, then defeating death by raising from the dead three days later.

Can you prove any of this to be true? Muslims say the same thing about Allah, you know. If I said that I talk to the Easter Bunny every day, would you believe me? Of course not. How can you dismiss all other religions? Yours is the same, backed with no evidence whatsoever.

suffering in the world is the result of Sin. When Adam and Eve ate from 'the tree of the knowledge of good and evil' when God commanded they do not do (which was a dire sin considering Adam and Eve desiring to be like God), the curse of 'death' was put on the World. Understand, just as how there's punishments for crimes by law enforcement, how much greater the punishment for sinning against and disobeying a righteous and just God? If he is our creator, so too is he our ruler and judge. Have hope though, this is why he sent Jesus, to save sinners. Also, giving us his Word for understanding to God, and answering questions such as yours. Trust me, my words are extremely insuffecient compared to God's. Allow me to recommend picking up a Bible and starting in the book of John?

If God is omnipotent, why did he need to sacrifice himself? Couldn't he have made the sinners saved without having to do anything? If God is omniscient, didn't he already know that they were going to eat from the tree? Why did God create sin?

Because as previously stated I believe in 'the authoritative Word of God'. And there is plenty of evidence out there for Biblical events and people. I also reject it because I believe I am a sinner who was in need of a savior. Evolution and Jesus don't mix. Also, there is so much out there on the Biblical texts and how the book came to be complete by the forth century a.d. Why do you reject God without reading what he has to say in his word? (The Bible). Not to mention, becoming a Christian was a life changing event for me. My heart changed from a Satan-obsessed blasphemer and people hater to a God-fearing, Bible reading people lover. also, "For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith". (Romans 1:17) The Lord has given me faith, and I am saved by grace through faith.

You didn't answer the question. I asked you why reject evolution. Can you please elaborate on why? You also say that there is evidence for Biblical events. Can you show me some evidence please?

Why do you assume that I have not read the bible? I have read the bible cover to cover, and studied it when I used to be a Christian.

Please point out where you believe I ever indicated such a thing. I believe the full Bible is true and every single verse is vital as and to every single other verse to form it as a complete whole with nothing to be added or taken away.

I edited my question to make it more clear, but I assume you didn't see. Sorry about that.

So you agree with these quotes?:

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 1 Timothy 2:12

Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel. 1 Peter 2:18

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. Exodus 21: 7-8

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Leviticus 20:13

.....I'm sure you get the basic jest though.....

Surely, you gist.

Please don't argue with just "you're an idiot" adding nothing to the debate, anything to back it up, and hate filled words. Also, I'd love to here about your knowledge on the Bible, though I honestly don't believe there is much of this knowledge in you. I respect your intelligence and think of you as a smart man, but regarding the Bible, since my conversion to Christianity two years ago (which I admit, I haven't shown myself to be the best example of a Christian at this site, but my knowledge of the Bible, theology etc. has always been building, and as for my conduct, this is improving I believe), I've spent many hours studying (not only the Bible but also Biblical commentaries and much other Biblical Christian literature), undergoing discipleship training, and sitting under the preaching of a strong Christian church which teaches nothing but the Bible and is free of any gimmicks or fluff. As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong), I don't think you've spent much time reading the Bible.

As for the Bible itself, I mostly read an 'English Standard Version' study Bible (ESV) which is an "essentially literal" translation of the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts. It places an emphasis on 'word-for-word' correspondence while at the same time taking into account differences of grammar, syntax, and idiom between current literary English and the original languages.



Now to my belief of the Bible as the authoritative word of God:

blah blah blah...

The full authoritative word of god, translated from a translation of a translation. You know,like possibly confusing "Walking on water" with "walking beside water". Pretty fucking shaky to base your beliefs on, but I suppose that's just logic talking, and we're not dealing with a surplus of that here. Either way, the only authoritative word of god in your narrative would be from the full original, unedited, and untranslated Bible, and since you're reading some crappy derivative of that, you're an idiot, because you believe things that could be complete falsehoods.


All the rest of your logic is "This book is truth because this book says that it is the truth. In which case, you're an idiot, because I said you're an idiot and I promise that it's true because I said so.

See? I don't need to use anything but "you're an idiot" to argue. QED, bitches.

From my understanding the Bible was written by man and man does not equal God.

God is the fictive image people created to explain things we could not yet understand in the times the idea of a deity was created. I believe in the fact that the need for a god is losing grip for the fact that due to science and common sense we've come to understand that everything is actually related to eachother and can be explained if you look hard enough.

Also claiming christianity is the only truth is ignorant if I might say so, not only are there older religions who christianity is based on, wich makes it's truths even more questionable, also how can people suddenly come to write all this in a bible 2000years ago when man has been around for way longer than told in the bible, so man created god, not god created man... We simply came into being, the conditions where right and evolution kicked in, I still find the fact they can prove evolution for 99% correctness more valid than some book saying it's not true because that book says it isn't, hardly any hard evidence or even a hunch of how it all began.

Imo religion is unneeded in the way it is used these days, it's a marketable feature as seen with a lot politicians all over the world claiming to be religious just to relate to the biggest religion in their country to get more votes. Also I believe we people are gods in our own right, nothing is perfect and nothing is alknowing or almighty, but some have godlike skill and sense in some areas of the human nature. When people describe a "god" I mostly get the answer a creator, the grand creator, what do we do as man? We shape the world around us like a god would do, we are our own gods, we create, I mean look at what we do with a 12year old game this site is dedicated to, we create! I sometimes see replies to screens, you're the god of RCT. I mean don't make a fuss where there is none, and certainly if you have no proof, the times where people where dumb enopugh to believe anything someone said and follow it to the end of the earth has passed, our logic has moved on and so should religion.

just my 2cents though

very well put, BG

Beliefs can create goals for people who need them, and that's great.

Religion, on the other hand, creates people like FantastiCo. Yeah, no thanks.

I have much to respond to, and I will tomorrow, since I'm tired and need sleep after such a lack of it in the last few days. For right now, I'll only respond to this:

The full authoritative word of god, translated from a translation of a translation. You know,like possibly confusing "Walking on water" with "walking beside water". Pretty fucking shaky to base your beliefs on, but I suppose that's just logic talking, and we're not dealing with a surplus of that here. Either way, the only authoritative word of god in your narrative would be from the full original, unedited, and untranslated Bible, and since you're reading some crappy derivative of that, you're an idiot, because you believe things that could be complete falsehoods.


All the rest of your logic is "This book is truth because this book says that it is the truth. In which case, you're an idiot, because I said you're an idiot and I promise that it's true because I said so.

See? I don't need to use anything but "you're an idiot" to argue. QED, bitches.

*holds back* Wow, Midnight. One question: Do you think you understand and know more about the Bible than I do? Answer without any of your witty BS and say it strait up. Do you think you do?

Also, you're basically calling me an idiot for finding my way out of Satan worship, self-mutilation and even schizophrenia because of the beliefs in God and the Bible I developed.

I remember curling up in bed most nights, uncontrollably shaking and sweating, fully believing I was burning in Hell and this would last an eternity, just waiting for the demons to come out of the walls and flames to begin erupting from the floor, sometimes even holocinating such things and hearing voices telling me to kill myself. I tried to appease the situation by worshiping Satan and hating God. Then in an attempt to ease my torment, doing massive amounts of drugs and alcohol, then smoking a cigaret and putting in out on my arm. Then grabbing the sharpest knife in the drawer and butchering my body in such a way the blood would flow end;lessly everywhere for days on end. Sometimes, I would take so many drugs and mutilate myself so bad, I was hospitalized for days and then it was once again off to the mental institution for a few months (where I would eventually have to lye and deceive my way out). BUT THIS IS NO MORE! AND IT'S BECAUSE OF MY BELIEFS!

"But the word of the cross is foolishness to the perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18

Even I know (as you apparently think I'm some kind of idiot), psychologists must have compassion. Which you've made apparent, you have none.

I thought New Element was about building roller coasters.

BUT THIS IS NO MORE! AND IT'S BECAUSE OF MY BELIEFS!

"But the word of the cross is foolishness to the perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18

A bible quote does not prove anything.



Correlation does not imply causation. At least respond to the points MA made instead of downright ignoring them. Ignoring an argument doesn't make it go away.

Good heavens, I'm going to bed. Good night.

I have much to respond to, and I will tomorrow, since I'm tired and need sleep after such a lack of it in the last few days. For right now, I'll only respond to this:



*holds back* Wow, Midnight. One question: Do you think you understand and know more about the Bible than I do? Answer without any of your witty BS and say it strait up. Do you think you do?

Also, you're basically calling me an idiot for finding my way out of Satan worship, self-mutilation and even schizophrenia because of the beliefs in God and the Bible I developed.

I remember curling up in bed most nights, uncontrollably shaking and sweating, fully believing I was burning in Hell and this would last an eternity, just waiting for the demons to come out of the walls and flames to begin erupting from the floor, sometimes even holocinating such things and hearing voices telling me to kill myself. I tried to appease the situation by worshiping Satan and hating God. Then in an attempt to ease my torment, doing massive amounts of drugs and alcohol, then smoking a cigaret and putting in out on my arm. Then grabbing the sharpest knife in the drawer and butchering my body in such a way the blood would flow end;lessly everywhere for days on end. Sometimes, I would take so many drugs and mutilate myself so bad, I was hospitalized for days and then it was once again off to the mental institution for a few months (where I would eventually have to lye and deceive my way out). BUT THIS IS NO MORE! AND IT'S BECAUSE OF MY BELIEFS!

"But the word of the cross is foolishness to the perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18

Even I know (as you apparently think I'm some kind of idiot), psychologists must have compassion. Which you've made apparent, you have none.

Look, if you're expecting me to take back my opinion because of your mental health issues, you're barking up the wrong tree. As I've told you both publicly and in private messages, you need to seek professional help regarding that shit immediately and I'm more than willing to help you find that help, even though you've told me both publicly and privately, in not so many words, to go fuck myself. Let's be clear--I'm very happy to see that you've found a way out of drug abuse and self mutilation, and I very much so disagree with your methods. But you are clearly not healthy yet, and that opinion has nothing to do with those methods. Seek help, Tim.

Midnight Aurora; you better wear a cape. A really fancy cape.

I conducted myself in a kind and respectful manner and asked others to do the same, but people like verti and MA don't know how to read. You think I'm "bad" because I shared my beliefs, but I did not attack anyone (I only semi-did so with MA but it was justified). If anything, you're all worst for trying to 'convert' me out of my beliefs. You're doing nothing different than what I'm doing, except you're saying it with hate and filth. You're complete hypocrites.

Cole, I have much to say regarding your questions and I need to respond which I will soon. This whole thing has just drained me so that will come later. (also, thanks for reading attentively as others have not).

My testimony affirms to me my beliefs are true. I went through a radical change and my mental issues were put to rest because I put my faith in Christ. Then you tell me my beliefs aren't true. Well they are to ME. MA called them "my methods" which he didn't agree with even though they worked for me. These are MY beliefs. They comfort me and keep me going. If they worked for me, and took away my agony and torment, damn you for telling me I'm wrong and should just throw them away. I never beat any of you up and I was more 'sharing'. You're all the ones trying to 'preach' to me, what I don't agree with, and if I'm okay with you not agreeing with me, you should be okay with me not agreeing with you. I even said; If you don't believe what I believe, so be it. Then stated it was the Lord's job to save souls, not mine, and that all I could do was pray for you. And I'll continue to do so. All I wanted here was a friendly debate and all you people did was express your unjust hate towards me.

verti- religion creates people like FantastiCo? How horrible I've been in this thread compared to your overwhelming care and kindness, right? please..

MA- considering my paranoid dillussions are gone, no longer holucinating and hearing voices, my reactions to these things (satan-worship, drugs, self-mutilation) are all gone and I'm now perfectly happy, content and possessing a new found inner peace, not to mention everyone in RL seeing my miraculous change and understanding my complete new found sanity (they don't look at me as "crazy" like some people do when they sit behind a computer screen and talk to me like they really know me), may I ask, help for what?