General Chat / Matrix Revolutions

Well, I did this for Reloaded, so I'll do it for Revolutions, I think I've gotten to a point to explain it as best I can.

Let's start from the beginning...

Humans are progressing through history, building more complex machines, and eventually computers, Artificial Intelligence, and eventually, actually intelligence.

That means we are sentient, and our computers, robots, cars, microwaves and toaster are all hypothetically able to think for themselves, and that creates conflict.

Two sentient beings trying to inhabit one planet, doesn't work too well, and knowing humans, we felt threatened.

Recall the original Matrix, when Morpheus is relating the history of things to Neo, he says "we do not know who struck first, but we do know it was us who scorched the sky." Nobody knows who started this "war" so it very well could have been the humans.

You see, the instinct that is driving the machines to enslave the humans, is the same instict that drives the humans to rebel, survival. Say, hypothetically, the humans did attack the machines out of fear and felling of being threatened, what would a mathematically thinking, equation balancing robot do? Retaliate, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, balance the equation. So now they are fighting and the humans cut off sunlight, in a sense bringing doom upon themselves. The machines need to survive so they search for alternative power sources, human body heat for example.

Now one of the main arguments here is that human bodies would be a very inefficient form of energy, which it would, but if the machines used coal, or natural gas, then we wouldn't have a movie, so lets dismiss the unrealistic aspect of human batteries for a moment.

The humans become enslaved and a few of them don't like the idea, and wake up, they run away and hide underground where the machines can't find them, and build Zion. The machines naturally want to exterminate this population of rebels, but as the architect has stated, that results in a perfection in the matrix, which crashed it. So they simply must
control the rebels. They need to

This was the Oracle's job, to control the rebels, she came up with the One, he would lead the people against the Machines, and in the process, meet the Archiect and start the rebellion over from scratch. The Oracle is not a rouge program guiding the humans against the Machines, she is a control mechanism to keep the people under control, the Agents never attack the Oracle, on rouge programs like Smith and The Merovingian do.

The Oracle is there to control the humans so the machines can survive, she is there to ensure the survival of the machines, and most of all, she can see into the future.

that is key in why she actually helped Neo rather than control him this time, she sees that the program Smith will grow out of control, and knows that her "One" is the only one who can stop him, so rather than simply guide him around in a circle like she had before, she needs him to destroy Smith, or aid in it, atleast.

The Oracle is not concerned with the humans, she is concerned with the Machines, she knows the survival of the machines depends on Neo's victory over Smith, and she knows Neo will not be victorious unless he is fighting for his people, so she knows that her, and her races survival depends on the survival of the humans.

The next argument brought up is, then why didn't the machines wait until after Neo was dead to kill the humans, then they can get rid of Smith and the humans in one swipe.

The simplest way to explain that is that, the machines are not evil, or treacherous, or liars, they made a deal they'll keep it,"

Oracle--"What of the others?"
Architect--"they will be freed,"
Oracle--"I have your word?,"
Architect--"Of course, what do you think I am, human?"

Sure they are bent on the destruction of the freedom of mankind, but thats just for them to survive, they aren't evil.

The machines had a choice, their survival depends on power sources, so they need the humans in captivity, but the virus Smith is apparently MORE of a threat to their society, so they are willing to give one up for the other, in hopes the humans are benevolent enough to either reverse the effects on the sky, or come up iwth alternative power.

hopefully I've explained the motivation behind the machines in doing what they did, from my perspective, and who the Oracle really is.

Now for some other questions.

Why did Smith's assimilation of Neo result in his destruction?

There are two equally plausible explanations for this.

#1: The Oracle stated the Smith was Neo's opposite. When Smith assimilated Neo, he cancelled his opposite, we had a large negative, and no positive. The equation was no longer balanced, so the negative disappeared as well.

#2: (and my favorite) When Neo made the deal with Deus Ex Machina (someone told me this was the name of the big machine face) he was jacked in, and connected directly the DEM, and the machines mainframe. When Smith assimilated him he connected himself to the machine mainframe in Neo's stead. The machines now knew everything about his programming and were able to delete his program.

Some would argue that they used the connection to directly delete him, but I think that would only get rid of the specific "Smith" that was once Neo, so I am more in favor of the using Neo to gain knowledge of Smiths programming so they could delete each one regardless of who it was.

Bane was connected to Smith through the Matrix as well, but when Bane dies, all the Smiths didn't, but Bane wasn't connected to the machines, which shows why I think the Machine to Neo to Smith connection did the job.

Next question.

Who was Sati, and how did she make a sunrise?

Simple, the Oracle said the is a program for every event, the movement of birds, rain, sunsets and sunrises. So Sati must have been a sunrise controlling program.

but her father said she didn't have a purpose? Well, maybe there already was a sunrise program, so they didn't need her, but she would still have the ability to do it.

What now?

Well, if the machines are no longertrying to control the humans, there fight for survival is over, and if the humans are no longer trying to take power away from the machines, there fight for survival is over.

So hypothetically, they could co-exist now, like we are doing now, the humans could help the machines restore their energy, and the machines could help rebuild human society.

Any comments, questions, criticisms, or additions?

You used my Neo/Smith idea thinger for a basis. I <3 you.

The smith thing doesent explain the machines pumping stuff into neo though.

I just took it that the machines were connected to neo, and then smith (when neo was assimalated), and then pumped neo's body (smith) full of energy junk, and sploded him.

But whatever.

About the year 2199 machines gained artificial intelligence and humans freaked out and went to war. The machines used solar power, so humans scorched the sky in a nuclear winter, and the machines started enslaving humans and drawing off their heat for power. Now they create test tube babies, grow humans in fields and plug them into the Matrix pods when they're children, feeding them on the liquified remains of those who die. The Matrix was designed to provide a mental stimulus for the human bodies. The word Matrix is derived from the Latin word for "womb", which is itself derived from the Latin word for "mother", which is "mater".

The First Matrix was designed as a perfect utopia but without choices. Humans did not accept it as real so they just kept waking up in their pods or dying. It was a disaster. So the Matrix was rebooted and redesigned to reflect human civilization in 1999, complete with freedom for people to do wrong things. Each person lived out their life in the Matrix program, acting and being acted upon. Free choice meant some people were good, others were bad, and these interactions created a perfect replica of reality. 99% of people accepted the program because of free agency. But 1% didn't, which is where the Architect had a problem to solve.

The Architect program is pure mathematics - left brain - order. The Oracle program is pure intuition - right brain - chaos. It was the Oracle that suggested the Architect redesign the Matrix to give humans free agency. Since humans were to have choices, so must the programs sent to watch over them, so they could adapt to the variances created by choice, and keep things in check.

To help the Oracle program understand human intuition even better, and thus help the Architect reduce the 1% rejection factor, the Oracle was to encourage people who sought enlightenment. She would prompt them with cryptic questions designed to draw out their free thinking. When they needed a special nudge, she would upgrade their ability to think and do with an enhancement code they would take in through the mouth; a cookie, some candy, etc.

In the Second Matrix a person responded to this stimulus and became The One. They were younger than 11, and childlike in their view of love, right and wrong. In the trilogy we learn that people older than 11 seldom adjust to the non-Matrix reality because they are too fixed in their ways. Enhanced with upgraded abilities The One learned of the truth about the human condition and hacked into the program to wake people up. These kids banded together and used what remained of real world human technology to mount a resistance against the machines, hence the hovercraft, weapons, walkers, etc. This gear was found on the surface and transported down to Zion in a time before the machines had Sentinels patrolling. When the machines realized the underground pipes and passages were being used as transport conduits by their enemies, they started sending out the Sentinels, but by then Zion was operational as a command centre and the kids had grown into adults.

The One of the Second Matrix eventually had enough experiences for a download of their knowledge into the Source to provide the Architect with new data to reduce the dropout rate of people plugged in. They were taken to the Architect's white room, and given the choice: walk through the Left Door to upgrade the Source with new data as was always intended, or walk through the Right Door back into the Matrix. If they chose the Right Door, the Matrix would be shut down while The One was inside, killing them and everyone else, and the Sentinels would wipe out the people in Zion. If they chose the Left Door, the Matrix program would get enhanced to better deal with human intuition and the resulting causality, and The One would be returned to the real world with his special program deleted (no longer The One) to select 16 women and 7 other men to repopulate Zion while anyone not chosen would be killed off by the Sentinels. This core group would then be in place to receive anyone else who dropped out of the Matrix program - which would happen because the Oracle program would continue to seek out and encourage kids to be The One, so the machines could further investigate human choice, intuition and causality.

Reboot, and in comes the Third Matrix and so on until the Sixth, when NEO emerged as the anomaly called The One. Neo is different to the other Ones. He was woken up older than 11. This means instead of having a general love for the people in the Matrix like the younger Ones had, he was old enough to have a specific love for Trinity, and a desire to save her inside the Matrix. Which is why he chose the Right Door instead of the Left Door in the Architect's room.

He was also different in that instead of running from the Agents he decided to confront them. Being a computer hacker might have given him a special perspective with which to operate inside the Matrix. When the Oracle upgraded his abilities with a cookie Neo developed the ability to see the Matrix in code while he was inside it. He could rewrite the code to stop the Agent's bullets, to reboot himself after being killed, to dive into Agent Smith's code and insert himself in its place, and even to fly.

But when he dived into Smith some of the upgraded Neo code wrote onto the Smith code. For the first time an Agent program was unplugged from its normal protocols and had freedom to reboot itself and overwrite other entities, like Neo had done. We saw it as Smith replicating himself.

This created a second and unanticipated anomaly inside the Matrix which threatened to bring the system down. So in Reloaded the Oracle told Neo he had to find the Keymaker, and get inside the Source, which ultimately was the objective written into his programming, but now needed to happen sooner rather than later. The system needed a reboot to delete Smith. She gave Neo some candy to rewrite his compliance to this goal, and told him he'd already made the choice and now needed to understand it.

When Neo, Trinity and Morpheus meet the Merovingian he talks about causality and how people can eat programs like orgasmic cake that force a reaction that can't be controlled, like Neo had with the candy. He tells Neo he's come there because he was told to be there, a puppet to the system. He denies Neo the Keymaker. Persephone helps Neo find the Keymaker, and Neo gets to the Source where he has the same discussion with the Architect that other Ones had before him.

However, this time The One does not rejoin the source code to reset the system. This time, his adult love is stronger than the compliance and causality code he'd been given. So instead of losing himself to save everyone in the Matrix - as past Ones had done - he saves Trinity from falling to her death, and restarts the code governing her heart. His consciousness is now more Program than human, living in a human body. Agent Smith was also a Program that had overwritten a human's code (Bane's) to upload into the real world and possess Bane's human body.

Neo and Smith are the same; one positive, one negative; one good, one evil. The Oracle says it clearly in Revolutions: Smith is the result of the anomaly trying to balance itself.

Neo's choice to save Trinity has changed everything. The system is still threatened by Smith's behavior, so the Oracle makes a new choice; one she has never done before because no version of The One has ever chosen the difficult path as opposed to easy one of just resetting the system. She allows herself to become merged with Smith in the hope that she'll be able to help Neo when the time is right. His choices being different to the program she fed Neo have made a believer out of her. Neo is stronger than his programming. He is really The One: self-aware and self-governing - a true god in machine terms.

At the end of their final battle, Smith tells Neo what the Oracle last told Neo: "everything that has a beginning has an end." This was the Oracle speaking to Neo through Smith, which Smith realizes because these aren't his words. When Smith replicated over the Oracle to see with her eyes, she fed him a vision of the future that was what he wanted to see, right down to what he would do, where he would stand and what he would say. Neo realizes the only way to end this is to sacrifice himself. He allows Smith to replicate onto him, thus destroying The One's program. Since Smith and The One are opposites, their merger cancels the other out, which is why all the Smiths simply delete.

The Architect then reboots to start the Seventh Matrix. This time there is an agreement for peace. There will be no reduction of Zion down to 24 people. Everyone will live. The Architect tells the rebooted Oracle that the machines will keep their peace. But he suspects the humans will not. The Oracle suggests Neo or another One will return.

This should clarify most things.

The Oracle doesn't want to control rebels, she wants to free them.
She ultimately wants to end the war between machines and humans. I can find a link somewhere if you are more interested.

Edit: Here check this out. Explains alot, and although it's long, it is a great read.
http://www.latinorev...pillreview.html

Where the heck did you get that?

Where the heck did you get that?

I am The One.

That explanation reiterates everything I've said, bravo to whoever wrote that, they saw things the same way I did.

isn´t this taking it too far?

I've decided that analyzing the Matrix movies isn't worth it for the return you get out of it. Those articles are a little bit interesting but it still amounts to a surface treatment of some complex philosophical problems. If you'e really interested in these topics, you'd do better to spend your time reading William Gibson's theories on Cyberspace and Jean Baudrillard's theories on Postmodernism. I did enjoy the 3 movies. They've generated more interest in current social theory and contributed to more mainstream acceptance of anime. Now that all is said and done there's still a lot that hasn't been said about the Matrix and what it represents. But that task will now go to future filmmakers and storytellers I guess.

It's just a movie!!! It doesn't have to make sense.

like The Little Mermaid...

It's just a movie!!! It doesn't have to make sense.

I like you Nevis... but that was really really stupid... not to mention completely wrong.

I don't think the ending of Revolutions was that bad, that unsatisfying. In fact, I didn't expect much more. After seeing Reloaded, I knew that there was no way that the world would be returned to its former state by the end of Revolutions. There was way too much plot in between and no way, basically, to convey such a process. What was achieved at the end of Revolutions, if I am seeing it correctly, was the first step toward restoration of the world. The Oracle seeks to end the war between man and machine and begin the restoration process. By taking over the Matrix, and having Neo devise a truce with the machines, she is that much closer to achieving this goal. If audiences were expecting a glorious ending in which the world is restored to its former state, they were expecting too much. The ending brings a degree of hope to the rebel campaign, a hint that it will eventually succeed in restoring the world. That, I believe, is all anyone could ask for.

You're both right.

The end of a trilogy should kinda make sense.

However, it is just a movie.

Voila.

Uh....Whats really really stupid and completely wrong of what I wrote?? I don't get where your coming from?

The idea that movies don't have to make sense is the kind of bullshit that leads to what is wrong with Hollywood right now. Thinking "it's just a movie... I just want to go and see shit get blown up" is an insult to the art.

I like you Nevis... but that was really really stupid... not to mention completely wrong.

You know, not a single minute of Naked Lunch made any sense whatsoever to me, but I enjoyed it just the same. It didn't need to be logical to hold my interest.

I mean, Jesus Christ, the two Davids have made a career on making brilliantly nonsensical movies which are enjoyable simply because of the emotions they attach to their abstractions.
If you want to talk about art, look at Salvadore Dali and H.R Giger, and their surreal, oddly sexual oddities.

Also, I don't understand why people need to analyse everything to the point of tedium, instead of just taking the experience in, deciding what they think of it, and living with it. There doesn't have to be ONE WAY to look at any work of art - it is what it is, and you can choose to see it how you please.
When you become analytical with this shit, you pretty much destroy the purity of the experience.

I don't think movies should just be there to tell a story and introduce a few characters. There's so much more you can do with it - including making illogical, nonsensical movies. I don't give a shit as long as I have a good time.

Different people enjoy movies in different ways. For a lot of people, the analyzation is part of the experience. Telling those people to just watch the movie and not analyze it afterwards is like making them watch it without sound - an essential part of the movie "experience" is missing. If you aren't interested in the analyzation, than ignore it. It doesn't concern you. And just as you're free to enjoy movies how you want to, allow other people to enjoy movies how they want to as well.

I understand your point of view. A lot of things in life aren't meant to be understood. Some things you feel and if you attempt to rationalize them you lose track of what's really important. Sometimes a movie touches me in a special way and I don't need or want to analyze it. I just know I loved it and that makes it great. Other times I want to dig into the myth of a view so I can get more out of it. Both sides of the brain can get a lot out of movies, there's no need to cut out either the logic or the intuition.

so yer sinking further and further into my realm, eh ed?


just saw it, and I have to say, I really liked it.
That is all I'm gonna say on that matter, for now.

About the year 2199 machines gained artificial intelligence and humans freaked out and went to war. The machines used solar power, so humans scorched the sky in a nuclear winter, and the machines started enslaving humans and drawing off their heat for power. Now they create test tube babies, grow humans in fields and plug them into the Matrix pods when they're children, feeding them on the liquified remains of those who die. The Matrix was designed to provide a mental stimulus for the human bodies. The word Matrix is derived from the Latin word for "womb", which is itself derived from the Latin word for "mother", which is "mater".

The First Matrix was designed as a perfect utopia but without choices. Humans did not accept it as real so they just kept waking up in their pods or dying. It was a disaster. So the Matrix was rebooted and redesigned to reflect human civilization in 1999, complete with freedom for people to do wrong things. Each person lived out their life in the Matrix program, acting and being acted upon. Free choice meant some people were good, others were bad, and these interactions created a perfect replica of reality. 99% of people accepted the program because of free agency. But 1% didn't, which is where the Architect had a problem to solve.

The Architect program is pure mathematics - left brain - order. The Oracle program is pure intuition - right brain - chaos. It was the Oracle that suggested the Architect redesign the Matrix to give humans free agency. Since humans were to have choices, so must the programs sent to watch over them, so they could adapt to the variances created by choice, and keep things in check.

To help the Oracle program understand human intuition even better, and thus help the Architect reduce the 1% rejection factor, the Oracle was to encourage people who sought enlightenment. She would prompt them with cryptic questions designed to draw out their free thinking. When they needed a special nudge, she would upgrade their ability to think and do with an enhancement code they would take in through the mouth; a cookie, some candy, etc.

In the Second Matrix a person responded to this stimulus and became The One. They were younger than 11, and childlike in their view of love, right and wrong. In the trilogy we learn that people older than 11 seldom adjust to the non-Matrix reality because they are too fixed in their ways. Enhanced with upgraded abilities The One learned of the truth about the human condition and hacked into the program to wake people up. These kids banded together and used what remained of real world human technology to mount a resistance against the machines, hence the hovercraft, weapons, walkers, etc. This gear was found on the surface and transported down to Zion in a time before the machines had Sentinels patrolling. When the machines realized the underground pipes and passages were being used as transport conduits by their enemies, they started sending out the Sentinels, but by then Zion was operational as a command centre and the kids had grown into adults.

The One of the Second Matrix eventually had enough experiences for a download of their knowledge into the Source to provide the Architect with new data to reduce the dropout rate of people plugged in. They were taken to the Architect's white room, and given the choice: walk through the Left Door to upgrade the Source with new data as was always intended, or walk through the Right Door back into the Matrix. If they chose the Right Door, the Matrix would be shut down while The One was inside, killing them and everyone else, and the Sentinels would wipe out the people in Zion. If they chose the Left Door, the Matrix program would get enhanced to better deal with human intuition and the resulting causality, and The One would be returned to the real world with his special program deleted (no longer The One) to select 16 women and 7 other men to repopulate Zion while anyone not chosen would be killed off by the Sentinels. This core group would then be in place to receive anyone else who dropped out of the Matrix program - which would happen because the Oracle program would continue to seek out and encourage kids to be The One, so the machines could further investigate human choice, intuition and causality.

Reboot, and in comes the Third Matrix and so on until the Sixth, when NEO emerged as the anomaly called The One. Neo is different to the other Ones. He was woken up older than 11. This means instead of having a general love for the people in the Matrix like the younger Ones had, he was old enough to have a specific love for Trinity, and a desire to save her inside the Matrix. Which is why he chose the Right Door instead of the Left Door in the Architect's room.

He was also different in that instead of running from the Agents he decided to confront them. Being a computer hacker might have given him a special perspective with which to operate inside the Matrix. When the Oracle upgraded his abilities with a cookie Neo developed the ability to see the Matrix in code while he was inside it. He could rewrite the code to stop the Agent's bullets, to reboot himself after being killed, to dive into Agent Smith's code and insert himself in its place, and even to fly.

But when he dived into Smith some of the upgraded Neo code wrote onto the Smith code. For the first time an Agent program was unplugged from its normal protocols and had freedom to reboot itself and overwrite other entities, like Neo had done. We saw it as Smith replicating himself.

This created a second and unanticipated anomaly inside the Matrix which threatened to bring the system down. So in Reloaded the Oracle told Neo he had to find the Keymaker, and get inside the Source, which ultimately was the objective written into his programming, but now needed to happen sooner rather than later. The system needed a reboot to delete Smith. She gave Neo some candy to rewrite his compliance to this goal, and told him he'd already made the choice and now needed to understand it.

When Neo, Trinity and Morpheus meet the Merovingian he talks about causality and how people can eat programs like orgasmic cake that force a reaction that can't be controlled, like Neo had with the candy. He tells Neo he's come there because he was told to be there, a puppet to the system. He denies Neo the Keymaker. Persephone helps Neo find the Keymaker, and Neo gets to the Source where he has the same discussion with the Architect that other Ones had before him.

However, this time The One does not rejoin the source code to reset the system. This time, his adult love is stronger than the compliance and causality code he'd been given. So instead of losing himself to save everyone in the Matrix - as past Ones had done - he saves Trinity from falling to her death, and restarts the code governing her heart. His consciousness is now more Program than human, living in a human body. Agent Smith was also a Program that had overwritten a human's code (Bane's) to upload into the real world and possess Bane's human body.

Neo and Smith are the same; one positive, one negative; one good, one evil. The Oracle says it clearly in Revolutions: Smith is the result of the anomaly trying to balance itself.

Neo's choice to save Trinity has changed everything. The system is still threatened by Smith's behavior, so the Oracle makes a new choice; one she has never done before because no version of The One has ever chosen the difficult path as opposed to easy one of just resetting the system. She allows herself to become merged with Smith in the hope that she'll be able to help Neo when the time is right. His choices being different to the program she fed Neo have made a believer out of her. Neo is stronger than his programming. He is really The One: self-aware and self-governing - a true god in machine terms.

At the end of their final battle, Smith tells Neo what the Oracle last told Neo: "everything that has a beginning has an end." This was the Oracle speaking to Neo through Smith, which Smith realizes because these aren't his words. When Smith replicated over the Oracle to see with her eyes, she fed him a vision of the future that was what he wanted to see, right down to what he would do, where he would stand and what he would say. Neo realizes the only way to end this is to sacrifice himself. He allows Smith to replicate onto him, thus destroying The One's program. Since Smith and The One are opposites, their merger cancels the other out, which is why all the Smiths simply delete.

The Architect then reboots to start the Seventh Matrix. This time there is an agreement for peace. There will be no reduction of Zion down to 24 people. Everyone will live. The Architect tells the rebooted Oracle that the machines will keep their peace. But he suspects the humans will not. The Oracle suggests Neo or another One will return.

This should clarify most things.

I like that explanation. NOw to read the other one.

Other times I want to dig into the myth of a view so I can get more out of it.

So you agree it depends on the movie? I mean, really, who gives a shit what was in the suitcase in Pulp Fiction (besides. Everyone knows it was the Holy Grail.).
I don't think anyone should stay awake at night wondering what the fuck the end of Barton Fink was all about, however. That's just unhealthy.

I'm not saying analysing is wrong, but you can overdo it, and completely miss the bigger picture - most movies, you get the gist of it immediately, and it's the little details, little metaphors and references here and there that you've missed. Maybe figuring out the smaller details is enjoyable - it's certainly more interactive.
But you have entire websites which pick apart movies and that's when it becomes a kind of intellectual exercise - which, usually, misses out the simplicity that was originally intended.
A lot of things are left open for the sake of it - the viewer can make their own mind up, but in the end, there isn't a definitive answer, and trying to figure one out is futile (The Matrix is one of these).
Not that you shouldn't give it some thought, but you should bear in mind the fact that it was INTENTIONALLY open.

I love movies which leave things open like that - it adds a quirky element of mystery but rationalising it, or trying to find a meaning where there is none would be a waste of my time. Movies don't have to make sense. A lot of movies don't make sense. On purpose.
"Dude. At the end of Hyôryuu-gai, that fag kicks a can at us, and it actually smashes the lens of the character. WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT MEAN?!"

That's probably why I find Metaphilm so hilarious - it's such an ingenius send up of the whole "Dude, what did that bucket in scene two mean?" thing. Plus, they actually make a lot of sense - they give it just enough thought to create a humorous new way of looking at a movie.
Goos show.

On the flip-side, you have movies like Blade Runner which are completely useless UNLESS they're analysed - they rely on themes and ideas more than anything else. Even then, it usually doesn't take much to see the meanings underlying the plot.

On a final, completely unrelated note, my ass* can shit a better a movie than anything Oliver Stone has ever done.

*My ass will begin touring with Kylie Minogue this year.