RCT Discussion / New LL Memory Editor/Trainer

If you're right about the tracks not merging because one appears before the other in memory (and I trust that you are) than it would be possible to have any number of track pieces occupying the same space simultaneously so long as they were all built one over the other. I had hoped this was true, but hadn't tested it yet. In that case, an option to move objects around in memory without actually moving them in the game like you're describing would be enormously useful. I use that land trick all the time (raise land, build track, zero clearances, lower land) to remove supports, but it'd be easier to just click on the trainer and press a couple buttons to do it. And I wouldn't have to worry about all those annoying land restrictions getting in my way.

I didn't realize that the order of the objects listed in the traine ris their order in the games memory. That's good to know. Might make it a little easier to identify right away which object I'm looking for. I had some trouble with that when I started placing a lot of bushes on the same square and they all show up as 'shrub' or 'bush'.

Oh, and if you are able to implement that color feature, going so far as to have the little color swatches there even, that would make an extra track description less necessary. It would be pretty easy to make a custom lifthill by just painting the part you want to add lift to red in the game, then selecting all the red track pieces in the trainer and clicking the chainlift button.

I think I see where you're going with the two way join. That would be good for something like a working shuttle loop. I think I understand how it would be done too. The cloning thing I can picture too, but I'm not sure what the benefit would be of doing it that way. Something might come up though.

I was also wondering earlier if there might be an easy way to make track invisible since that's always a popular feature. What you said before about track being invisible if you build it over an object and then delete the object in memory actually solves a great mystery I've had because I've built on workbenches before where I took someone else's map that was the right size and just cleared it of all the scenery first (usually for H2H I think) and I would have these random spots where, if I built coaster track there, it would be invisible. That was a long time ago, way before RCT2, and I remember thinking "hey this would be really useful" but I couldn't for the life of me figure out why it happened or how to replicate it.

So here's an idea I had. You would build your track in the game and place an object (say a glass cube) under each piece of track. Maybe you use the color feature we mentioned earlier to make it easier to find the track in the trainer. Then you can select all the track you want to make invisible in the trainer and click a 'make invisible' button that will somehow invert the selection and instead select an object below those track pieces. Maybe make it simple and force people to use the glass cube and have the option automatically look for glass cubes located under the selected track. Then you could click another button to change all the hex code to FF in the appropriate place. Or maybe combine both functions into one button click. Alternatively, you could just have people select all the objects and press the button to change the hex code. That might be less messy.

One last thing -- in your little tutorial video you're working with the trainer and the game simultaneously and seemingly with ease. I still have to do that annyoing right clicking thing to get the mouse to activate in windows and also the game map doesn't refresh for me when I make a change unless I zoom or rotate the map. Is there something you know that I don't know? Heh, I mean ragarding this specifically.

Yeah, the game crash only happens when the clearances are lowered.

Edited by OLE, 05 August 2006 - 11:34 AM.

Does that mean that double stations are now also possible? And a ride like the original idea for elemental dance in Erwindale could become a reality?

Holy flying monkey shit mantis! I think you may be right!

This hack (if you mean the Kindda Ka station) is possible for a long while already. I even have a working version of it in RCT2. Only problem is that the invisible hack is needed for that which means I can hardly use it for a Coaster.
Then again the invisible function of this trainer makes it possible to make the double station for any element in LL.

[I'm using it for an LL design at the moment]

Edited by Magnus, 07 August 2006 - 05:38 AM.

Hi, I’ve been busy the last couple of days so sorry for the lateness of my replies. I have today and tomorrow off work so hopefully I’ll get quite a bit done.

Well the true impact of this trainer will only be apparent in a few months time I imagine

Oh, I’m not saying it’s not going to be largely ignored now . But I think given that it’s a small circle of people still playing ll it’s more significant to have features that are already commonly used, just better implemented, than new features which people won’t start to realise great uses for for a long time.

If you're right about the tracks not merging because one appears before the other in memory.

Well this is what I have found from what testing I’ve done. This seems to be what is determined by the order in which you build the track elements when merging (for the Beast and mine). I don’t know what happens if there are other track elements between the 2 you want to merge with though.

I had some trouble with that when I started placing a lot of bushes on the same square and they all show up as 'shrub' or 'bush'.

Heh, all the descriptions come from what it says in rct when you hover the mouse of the object in the scenery window (well, they come from doctor j’s site actually. But it appears that’s how he got them) and some of these are not very descriptive.

What you said before about track being invisible if you build it over an object and then delete the object in memory actually solves a great mystery I've had because I've built on workbenches before where I took someone else's map that was the right size and just cleared it of all the scenery first (usually for H2H I think) and I would have these random spots where, if I built coaster track there, it would be invisible.

Yeah, this is how I found it too; well actually I think it was actually my brother. He asked me what was wrong and I examined the squares in Winhack to find out what was going on.

So here's an idea I had. You would build your track in the game and place an object (say a glass cube) under each piece of track. Maybe you use the color feature we mentioned earlier to make it easier to find the track in the trainer. Then you can select all the track you want to make invisible in the trainer and click a 'make invisible' button that will somehow invert the selection and instead select an object below those track pieces. Maybe make it simple and force people to use the glass cube and have the option automatically look for glass cubes located under the selected track. Then you could click another button to change all the hex code to FF in the appropriate place. Or maybe combine both functions into one button click. Alternatively, you could just have people select all the objects and press the button to change the hex code. That might be less messy.

I will hope fully being adding more operations to perform on the current selection soon. I personally prefer the method of having an option to select all of a certain object and then perform some operation on them rather than having loads of buttons that each do only one thing as I think it’s more elegant and more open (in terms of what it can be used for).
Warning, what I’m about to say probably only makes sense to me.
However, one feature I’ve always hoped to eventually implement is allowing the creation, management and use of user defined macros. Basically, allow the user to make their own scripts of what to select and operations to perform on them. So they can repeat the same hacks over and over when building a park and then in other parks, just by running their script.
People could also easily share their macros, and new macros can keep on being created when development of the editor stops (permanently or temporarily).
This would have the almost opposite ethos of the map control. Rather than being a multipurpose tool, it would collection of specific hacks like what you’re describing yet still be incredibly flexible.
Unfortunately I don’t think me implementing this is very realistic, so I’ll probably have to add seemingly useful scripts as code to the map control.

One last thing -- in your little tutorial video you're working with the trainer and the game simultaneously and seemingly with ease. I still have to do that annyoing right clicking thing to get the mouse to activate in windows and also the game map doesn't refresh for me when I make a change unless I zoom or rotate the map. Is there something you know that I don't know? Heh, I mean ragarding this specifically.

Your not missing anything regarding to the right clicking, I’m just getting used right then left clicking in close succession and this doesn’t come across in the video.
To refresh things in ll, have the land or scenery tool open (or anything else that makes that white box appear around the cursor in game) then wave the cursor around where you want to refresh.

Yeah, the game crash only happens when the clearances are lowered.

Like I’d said, this is a 98/ll bug as I got this with other programs too. So I can’t fix it but hopefully I can work around it. I’m pretty confident it has something to do with being ‘always on top’ as said before. But it’s obviously more specific that that. The only thing I can think of that makes this problem specific to lowering clearances, is that the trainer changes it’s window title whilst it’s working.

I’ve changed this version so that it doesn’t change the title for clearances (still does for the land tool). Could you test this out for me and let me know if you still have the problem? I don’t have 98 installed anywhere. If it does still crash the game, could you try turning always on top off from the menu in the toolbar and let me know if it works then. Thanks!

Care to share how that's done Magnus?

df

^I'll test it tomorrow. If it works, thanks a lot. You didn't have to do that just for me. I'm probably the only person who has an 98 computer . Like I said, it's not a huge problem but I forgot sometimes and lost work because of it. I'll get back to you some time.

This hack (if you mean the Kindda Ka station) is possible for a long while already. I even have a working version of it in RCT2. Only problem is that the invisible hack is needed for that which means I can hardly use it for a Coaster.
Then again the invisible function of this trainer makes it possible to make the double station for any element in LL.

The Erwindale hack is different than multiple stations. It actually would have only one station, and one lift hill, connected to three different tracks. So while now you can have one coaster with 3 different colored trains, the idea was for those three trains to start out from the same station, but at some point they would split into different track sections before coming together again at the end. It would be a self-dueler without the train splitting (like Elemental Spirit Dance) or without the seperate opposite-facing stations (like Collision Course).

I think this is possible now with darkfire's trainer, though it would depend on whether you can have more than two tracks occupying the same space (which I haven't tested yet) and also whether the hack would still work for elements like loops and station buildings and whatnot (also not tested). I think though if darkfire is right about the hack working because of the place each track occupies in memory, than the idea seems like it should work. Although the problem now is that I have no reason to use this hack anymore and no plans for a park that would use it. This does open up lots of other related ways of using merging and non-merging though to create new ride ideas.

Although the problem now is that I have no reason to use this hack anymore and no plans for a park that would use it. This does open up lots of other related ways of using merging and non-merging though to create new ride ideas.

Why not revisit Erwindale now that you can complete it like you'd planned?

Anyhow - darkfire, this trainer looks pretty cool. I'm already thinking of some hacks I could use this for... and if I ever get back into building in LL, I'm sure this'll be a great help. Thanks.

-ACE

Naw, I like what I ended up with even though it isn't what I initially planned. And it wouldn't really be productive to do a redux version I don't think. There's a lot that I could do better now, but I'd rather spend my time developing new themes. I'm happy with it the way it is. Same thing with Battlefield and Blood Island (though there are a few mistakes there I'd fix if I could). Cajamarca I would like to go back and actually finish though. And of course Aquatica, which I have been working on in bits but is still a long ways from being finished.

If anyone else wants to try and pull off a 'choose your own adventure' coaster like that, be my guest.

The Erwindale hack is different than multiple stations. It actually would have only one station, and one lift hill, connected to three different tracks. So while now you can have one coaster with 3 different colored trains, the idea was for those three trains to start out from the same station, but at some point they would split into different track sections before coming together again at the end. It would be a self-dueler without the train splitting (like Elemental Spirit Dance) or without the seperate opposite-facing stations (like Collision Course).

This is possible for 2 trains already. (Invisible hack needed again; I need to try that out though, but in theory it should be the same hack as the double station thing on Kingda Ka. Contact me for further details.)
Not sure if I could make it working for 3 trains without this trainer or winhack aswell. Probably not.

I will probably use that hack for a river rafting one day.

In LL this erwindale hack is possible, you'd see one station but there'd actually be three on top of each other. This program would help, or saving the layouts would and building them on top of each other.

But if you build the saved layouts in the same place then the track will merge, unless you know something I don’t. Your right about having been able to build working dual stations for a long time though, by having 2 rides separated by a quarter of a height marker.

This is very easy to do using my trainer.
I’ve just made this tutorial showing how it’s done.
However I think you could then lower the track back down (though you’d have to select all the squares individually) and it would still work. That way the track would just look normal too.

I’ll give it a go and let you know how it turns out.
edit: One merges with the other that's first in memory, but then why wouldn't it. That's what I said happens :' /> I've confused myself.

df

Edited by darkfire, 10 August 2006 - 04:07 PM.

You guys are forgetting that 1) No one (or at least no one publicly) knew how to make track invisible when Erwindale was made -- so it was not possible that way then, even if it is now and 2) I don't know how to use WinHack WME. And there was no way to raise things a 1/4 space before without it. Maybe you're right that I could have accomplished it by saving the layouts and using zero clearances to then build them on top of each other. If that does work, than that's the easiest way to do it. I didn't ever try that. -- but, apparently it doesn't work.

So maybe now there's three ways to accomplish this instead of just one. Doesn't change the fact that I couldn't figure out how to do it before. Nor does it change the fact that this trainer is making a lot of ride ideas I could never quite figure out before possible for me.

You hack mavens are always so quick to say "Oh Oh I could do that - I've been doing it since I was in pre-school!" . Calm down. Jeez.

Oh, and it would make for a pretty cool river raft Magnus. I definately like that idea.

^Are you sure about the invisible track part? I thought it was discovered way before. Maybe by Prince or someone.

First time I saw it was in Phatage's alien invasion park. There were rumors though...and several people claimed to have done it first when Phatage released his park. That was way after Erwindale though. Like at least a year later.

On Prince's Parkmaker page it says he discovered invisible track in EverQuest: Haunted Lake, which was released in 2002. Isn't that like a year before Erwindale?

Oh and I remember Buster made this weird coaster called h4axor or something that had some kind of double station. I still don't know how he did it.

Edited by OLE, 08 August 2006 - 11:03 AM.

On Prince's Parkmaker page it says he discovered invisible track in EverQuest: Haunted Lake, which was released in 2002. Isn't that like a year before Erwindale?

Oh and I remember Buster made this weird coaster called h4axor or something that had some kind of double station. I still don't know how he did it.

What park is that and where can I find it? Would be nice to find out what he did there.

^Which one? The EverQuest: Haunted Lake is on Prince's Parkmaker page. H4axor is on Buster's Parkmaker Page.

If they don't work I think I can send you H4axor. Not sure if I have Haunted Lake though.

Edited by OLE, 08 August 2006 - 11:18 AM.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. All I know is that Phatage's Unfriendly Invader is the first time I ever saw it in either game. Actually, that's not true. I saw bits and pieces missing before that, but never a full ride. And the people who had pieces missing got it either by mistake (which is how I got it, but I could never make it happen intentionally) or by hacking code. That's what I remember. You'll have to talk to Prince to hear his side.

There's no need to get all worked up, Ed. I was just trying to figure this out. I'm not trying to prove anybody wrong or anything. I just wondered about that EverQuest park.

No, don't worry. I'm not getting worked up I'm just explaining myself.

The point remains, I had the idea back when I didn't know how to do it and now I do know how to do it but have no use for it.