Park / Art of War
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17-April 09
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I, to be honest, frankly just don't care whether the park resembles warfare or a natural catastrophe or just a small, lovely themepark. I don't give a damn. What matters to me is wheter it communicates a message and on the other hand whether it pleases my eye.
To be honest, AOW might have been a little too heavy on the message and a little too easy on the pleasing, with WSC being about vice-versa. But as it wasn't even intended to deliver some kind of message else than that there are some people being able to build a decent themepark and having fun while doing so, it's okay to me.
So pleeeeeease, everybody, please stop bitchin around. There have always been different views on how things should be, in the whole history of mankind. But I'd say we should all just concentrate on our next parks so we can give this community what it deserves - one heck of a competition and a lot of fun, big "whoooas" and lots of great parks.
Wait, is this something personal now, or what?
I would have never thought you'd get that deep into a fight because of the first H2H matchup.
To be honest, I would have voted for the Hurricanes Park because, as many others, I do like realism, but that is not all. I like to open a park and then I want to be able to picture myself in it. I can already see a lot of Elementalists say:
"Oh, you're just going with what the rest likes. Your park is not innovative".
But that would be an absolutely ridiculous point. Seriously, this is not even a Fantasy Game. There are different ways to interpret it but each of those ways of course has to be respected. I like the ideas and I love all the hacks you put in your park. But if you think of it, what would be so pleasant about a park in real life, that has trebuchets and cannons fireing everywhere. Any park could do that, but no park would probably make anyone enjoy it. I understand that this might be meant to be more like an exhibition of war, than a real park. But that just doesn't attract me as much. I feel that AoW is all about the hacks. I don't think that there is anything major besides the hacks, to be honest. The hacks are really fantastic but there is something more than only hacks for me.
I think that the Hurricanes' park is extremely creative in an aesthetical way and that each of the areas depicts the country it stands for.
My last words here are that I don't feel the need of defending my opinion later because there is no reason to. My own opinion and the opinion of others is something that nobody can take from us and some people here have to understand that it seems. I respect every different view to but if there are actually less people sharing your guys' opinion then why would you start a fight about it and why would you start insulting the Hurricanes and World Showcase.
This discussion is truly on a very low niveau I'd say.
And now, most people don't like warthemes apparently so let's stop turning this topic into a warzone.
My opinion about the parks itself are yet to come. I can tell you already I liked both parks a lot!
Especially the atmosphere in World Showcase was brilliant. And there was of course a lot to look at.
Edited by Sulakke, 18 April 2009 - 09:49 AM.
I liked the hacks in the art of war park. And i love to watch it for a while and find out after a min what it is and what it is meant to be. I loved the trebutchets, the cannonballs, the droppings and the couriers
What i didnt like about this park, was the space area, that one really disssapointed me, everything else: beautifull!
in the world showcase park. I really liked to watch every part of it and check out all the details and all the great ideas. Like the spotlights, the termite mount and the parade.
what annoyed me, was how crowded it was. I think that every area was too little.
I chose for the art of war park, simply because it was different then what you always see. lots of parks are realistic theme parks. But i like it when you see something different and outstanding. and that is what Art of war was to me.
btw i cant vote. it says the code is invalid
Edited by misterthom, 18 April 2009 - 10:31 AM.
I viewed Art of War first, so wrote that code down, and then wrote the World Showcase' code after.
But when entering the codes the parks have switched and you enter World Showcase' first and Art of War second, that's where I went wrong, if that makes sense.
All the hacks were well executed. The ideas were really impressing.
Moreover I don't think it's bad, when war-strategys are shown on a park.
But thats my opinion.
The World Showcase park is basing on an good idea, which was executed several times before though.
I liked all parts, maybe you could have choosed some more creative parts.
I was a bit nerved because I had to click 19 ride-windows away xD
But it looked really good.
If i could vote, the Elementalists would get my vote.
Yannik
now I tried to watch the canes park again ... and still after reading so much replies of people who say it has great atmosphere etc I DON'T SEE IT ... honestly were is this atmostsphere .... there are some buildings with so much color they could almost be a ballpit and besides that are buildings with about no color at all. there are buildings with details to the max (often done by using the premade detailed objects by argonath) besides buildings that have the ammount of detail wich fits a barn.
the opening show was nice but not new ... actually it was considerd for AOW also but didn't made it to the park because it was used to much already in the older days and because it wouldn't really fit the park. some of the rides weren't that bad, I agree to that. and some of the archy was nice also. but really I tought it just looked like a kids room with all kind of toys everywhere and no real organisation in it. I believe I've seen that eifel tower somewhere else before (maybe not with a ride it in but the design I've seen before). one or two things could keep my attention for longer than a few seccond, they where the entrance building and the large indian temple ... maybe cause they fitted to theire area a bit.
I can see why people like the park ... but the things they say over the park I can't see or feel ... probally a matter of taste.
now let me say something about the elementalists park. THE PARK WASN"T BUILD JUST BECAUSE OF THE HACKS. the hacks are build so they serve the area. there are no pointless hacks in a area, they serve the theme. most of the hacks are REALLY simple they only need some organisation and a few tricks. there are two hacks in it which are a bit harder but still I wouldn't say they are build because of the hacks. the park was build because our team liked to try this team cause we tought it would look good and was something wich wasn't really done before. now probally it wont ever be done again because of the comments here.
@ mifune -> I dont even want such a rule .... but imo H2H isn't to build something to impress people ... imo H2H is to enjoy building with others.
@ posix -> there might be one of the reasons why I build different.... I'm no real themeparkfan ... but still I play rct2, I play it cause I like ROLLERCOASTERS. and especially the physics aspect of them. oh and actually I've once had a fantasy model railway
@ J K -> I didn't want to insult your team or so .... I wasn't refering to your team in most of my post (see robbies reaction).
@ turtle -> probally our ideas of atmosphere are different.... I personally think planes flying in an area and lifting cars up and dropping bombs etc DO add to the atmosphere of an area ... much more than a entertainer which is frozer (isn't that actually not more cruel ... someone who is frozen in a park and have to stand theire for the rest of his life), and again I didn't want to insult you. I tried put an explanation in the park description, but probally nobody reads that, else they might have asked also how I got this scenario goal.
@ darren -> moving while loading, just wait and see.....
@ robbie92 -> read my post carefully and you will probally notice most things I say aren't directly to your team. most are about a lot of members or the community as it is now. the posts sums up why i left the community for a while. I recently return cause I like building with other people. thats why I do the h2h, there is no other reason. winning is nice but if I lose I dont care also. I will have fun nontheless (I think my team can agree this is my point of view).
@ fisch -> no its not personal. its somethings i've said before and which is proven many times already.
@ mifune (2) -> I don't want to defend my opinion, I just want to let people into my world. What would be nice about being in the elementalists park? well maybe I like other things than you but personally I would enjoy it to be shoot over the wall and end up in a net or something at the other side. I would love to fly a plane in a park and try to drop a bomb as close to a place as possible. I would love to fly a plane and try to pick up a car, I would love to ride a car and sudenly be picked up by a plane and carried for a while. I would love to try to race on a horseback as fast as possibly trough a camp. I would love to sit in rockets and fly everywhere I can. I would love to race other people in ufo's. do I need to continue?
now I'm not going to respond on these things anymore. I wanted to make some things clear. thats done. now lets talk about the parks again.
edit: I re-read my post and it sounds like i'm really bitter .... I'm not ... sorry if I sound like that. I'm just dissapointed thats all. I tought the community was ready for this, but they aren't yet. I crawl back under my stone for a while.
Elementalist's
Ok so overall, I liked this park a lot more from the overview. I liked the different take on war and I found you could have expanded each area into its own park and pull of the themes just as well.
To me what was lacking was atmosphere. I don't care how big the structures are and I don't care how complex the hacks are. What it boils down to if your park is not pleasing in an aesthetic form it'll loose a certain impact your park needs.
That's where I think the main problem lies with this park, and I can understand how complex the hacks must have been and I can understand the effort that went into them. As I said before I don't care how big and complex they are but I certainly respect them.
I knew one builder in this, not sure if there’s another one maybe but I think there is. I also knew you'd go first which I respect.
Ok so Pro's - The hacks
- The complex level of the rides.
- The overall theme
- Working catapult, ingenious.
- The courier (moving through the peeps was lovely)
- The bombing aeroplanes with the mouse car.
The cons - The atmosphere
- The Wow factor, not just the Hack factor.
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The Hurricanes.
I must say it's been a journey watching this park progress to the level it is now. I think we can all say we were unsure through parts of this park but the builders pulled through and built some really nice stuff. Each area was done to a consistent standard and with a good level of skill and detail. The ideas were subtle but they were big ideas that added to the expertise that the park held.
My favourite areas were Australia, Italy, Morocco, and Russia. I applaud you guys for building this many styles on one map as they could of easily clashed and disturbed the balance that this park needed. I also thought the builders did a good job of refining their ideas to a small area. To me that’s hard to do and you guys did it well.
The pro's - The level of detail and consistency that the park had.
- Italy's atmosphere was breathtaking.
- The Aussie whirl. Only one player makes rides
this fun to watch.
- Russian architecture was beautiful.
- The spaceman on the frigging shop!!!!
- Brazil, I really liked it all.
- The fireworks show. Pulled off to perfection. Some
pretty complex hacking must of gone into that too.
The con's - Some area's were slightly rushed (only because of the
deadline)
- Slight clash of styles, but you all worked extremely
hard to blend them together.
First round hurricane matches always go off with a bang. Castle Grijj/ Ragnorak anyone?
JK
I think what it all boils down to is the clash of styles. When two semi realistic parks and two fantasy parks are up it's not that hard to choose the winner. You just have to pick the one that impressed you the most. When a fantasy and realistic park go "head to head" and it's a tough choice, people will have to resort to things like style preferrance and how they feel about the theme. So I feel that in match like this the quality is there in both but in the end people close their eyes and vote for either the aesthetics or the hacks and whichever is the preferred style will win. Tbh I think both parks here could have been better and if this was a later match (like the case with internet city vs kayate ridge) this would be closer because the quality would be that much higher. And in past h2hs if it wasn't a clash of styles it was a clash of games that spurred the most debate.
And Gwazi if you don't like people "jumping" all over you don't try and make it out like some moral issue. To all those who just didn't care for it that's ok but saying this theme shouldn't be done and that it was celebrating war was just uncalled for. It was insulting to my teammates and to me and if you meant to or not... what do you really expect?
I do think people get one thing wrong often though. A park isn't built on hacks... it's built on different ideas. If it takes hacks to pull off those ideas then that's what it takes. When making a park like AoW the creators don't think "what badass hacks can I do to win votes", they think "a moving plane dropping a bomb would be sweet" or "a trebuchet hurling guests over the wall would be fun to watch". So no, a park isn't built on hacks but the ideas that require hacks.... or in the case of WSC, the ideas that don't require hacks. That's the only difference as far as I can tell. If you don't appreciate the ideas in one or the other, that park will have nothing else.
So really, am I unhappy or angry with losing? Yes and no. I don't like the feeling like we could bring a very comparable and finished park to every week and have it be blown out of the water by semi realism. I wish we would be more competitive than that. But in the end I think all the creators here had fun, we had two finished parks to look at and we had some discussion. THAT more than anything is what h2h is about... not just winning. So by all means, keep it up. I don't care if we lose like this the rest of the season. It just means our topics will spur the most debate
True.
But it kinda seems like you don't know that.
Or you don't know it as long as you're not going to win this thing.
Art of War
+ Awesome hacks
+ Campsite
+ Pretty ships with funny cannonballs
+ Concept
- Park layout
- A lot of empty space
- No stunning architecture
World Showcase
+ Illuminations
+ The inverted
+ Some architecture (pink building in Italy, pagoda)
+ Amazing Retarded Panda
- Some architecture
- Lack of originality
- Some mistakes, for example elephants in the Amazon
- Some bad executed countries
This was very hard to judge. Both parks have clear pros and cons, buth each in their own way. I judged on three things: Beauty, originality and intelligence. World Showcase was obviously the most beautiful park although there were some less good parts, and Art of War was by far the most original park; World Showcase was barely original. So far it's a tie. For the intelligence, Art of War is the winner to me. The hacks were ingenious and still very very much fun to watch. World Showcase was just average on intelligence level, some details were great but there also were some horrible mistakes like the elephants I mentioned before.
Art of War was more fun to watch, so the Elementalists got my vote.
To both teams: Good job!
When I see the parks in terms of themes, neither intrigues me more than the other. Art of War presents many concepts that I'm all to familiar with, from Battlefield RCT, Death Star Assault, and The Seige at Castle Grijs. World Showcase is more than familiar territory, as I worked on Majestic World Tour and the concept has also been explored plenty of times in RCT Disney parks.
On the level of minor details, both parks are very comparable, and enough examples have been cited that I'll avoid being redundant.
The mid-level atmosphere is what influenced my vote. I thought that World Showcase had a better layout, and that the themes worked better within the layout that was there. If Art of War's overall layout was a bit more aesthetically appealing than four squares with a mountain cutting through the center, it may very well have influenced my vote the other way.
I'll admit that before I voted, I'd never even heard of Sun Tze's book, The Art of War, but I think the creators were obligated to provide a readme with a brief explanation of the source and the park's exploration of it for the familiarity of the viewers. If the Elementalists are really going to start creating safer parks, like Levis suggested, that's not going to win my vote.
^Levis, That's what caused me to assume that you were going to have less controversial parks, though it seems I've interpreted this statement the wrong way.
Edited by Ge-Ride, 18 April 2009 - 02:17 PM.