General Chat / GAY MARRIAGE

So you are trying to solve a modern problem with a 2000 year old moral codex. I mean wtf?
 
I still believe this thing will be the same as past stuff about racism and sexism. In 20 or 30 years we will look back and ask ourselves how this even was a discussion, except some backward thinking people of course.

There is difference with gay marriage as opposed to sexism or racism, at least in my opinion. They are actually very different, with the only similarity being that there is no wrong or right answer. There simply isnt, you can't say its right, you can't say its wrong. I don't care how much you can argue for it or against it, there just isn't an answer. But, like many things, we have to do what makes the least amount of people unhappy.

100 years ago people debated over calling blacks human or not. They didn't think there was a clear answer. People didn't think it was clear that woman should be treated equel. Treating homosexuals equal to heterosexuals is basically the same as women/man in my opinion.

There is a right answer which is to give every human equal rights.

So you are trying to solve a modern problem with a 2000 year old moral codex. I mean wtf?

Oh boy. Don't even get me started on this. 

As for what could happen next? I've already covered that. Marriage could decay to a point where it has no meaning because its definition has been stretched so far. 

 

good

Csw, it seems like you think there is one universal definition of what marriage and family is. But truth is, cultures all over the world have different definitions of marriage and family. The values you assign to them may not apply when it comes to other cultures. Two recurring ideas in 'marriage' all over the world are 1) love, and 2) marriage as a way to create alliances between states or families or whatever. I think we can all agree that there's little place for that second idea in our part of the world. Here, shouldn't marriage be all about love?f two people love each other, why can't they seal their love with a symbolic pact that has some juridical implications too? If heterosexual couples have that right, homosexuals should have it too. I don't see how a marriage between two people of the same gender is in any way counterproductive. Not more or less counterproductive than two frustrated homosexuals living together without marriage, or even worse, two closet homosexuals pretending to be heterosexual and because of that psychologically damaging themselves and the people around them.

the modern american structure of marriage didnt exist until the 19th century lol

So I guess I'm the only one who disagrees with... ...
...
...I'm looking forward to discussing this issue with you all. 

I respect both you and your opinion and you have a right to have that opinion and to voice it.

I also think you are very brave for voicing your opinion on a forum that has quite a few gay members, both 'out' and not 'out', and is very much 'pro gay'.

All in all, I already respected you as a member, and I think now I have even more respect for you.

I may not agree with your belief, however I can appreciate your feelings and understand why you feel the way you do.

Liampie is very correct to point out that the definition of a marriage (and particularly what it "means") is intrinsically tied to cultural and personal beliefs. The modern marriage system is a legal one - a way to handle property ownership, taxes, legal responsibility, health care, and other boring adult things. Shy of all of that, there's no real reason to get married, in my eyes. I've had people in my family say it makes you take the relationship more seriously but if you were already in that relationship long enough and already that comfortable around your partner, surely the gesture of getting married isn't going to necessarily change anything (nor should it, I don't think). It probably also makes having children slightly easier (from a legal perspective) but I have no interest in that.

I fully agree with that Ling, I don't think I would ever feel the need to marry, apart from maybe getting some juridical benefits. You love and trust each other or you don't.

Late to the party on this but I'm thrilled that this country finally woke up. I'll never understand why anyone has an issue with gay marriage. Americans love to go on and on about freedom and then tell other people what they can and cannot do. Unless what you're doing is hurting someone else then you should be free to do it or we should all shut up about how much we love freedom (as if America is the only "free" country in the world).

Like many others have said, I respect csw's opinion and he has every right to believe what he does despite the fact that I disagree entirely. However, in light of this, I have to say I am incredibly interested in how old csw thinks the Earth is and his opinion on flood geology...

 

I agree with what Liam has said. Marriage, above all things, should be about love. Who gives a fuck what the gender is? For all you know two transgender people could get married in front of your face and you wouldn't know it so who cares? I could say a lot more about this because I think the Bible is utterly ridiculous but I will be a polite human being for now and not start that up.

Marriage is the promise between two people to care for each other through good and bad. A society can't deny some of its members what it grants to others, based on the social construction of gender and gender roles. Yes, it is a social construct. Yes, all of us are members of a species first, gender second.

Equality is not to be based on a person's (religious) beliefs. They don't matter here. Equality is absolute.

I respect both you and your opinion and you have a right to have that opinion and to voice it.

I also think you are very brave for voicing your opinion on a forum that has quite a few gay members, both 'out' and not 'out', and is very much 'pro gay'.

All in all, I already respected you as a member, and I think now I have even more respect for you.

I may not agree with your belief, however I can appreciate your feelings and understand why you feel the way you do.

Quote of the year. I'm not going to voice my opinion on this topic but I just want to say that reading such a calm, intelligent, and civilized response is absolutely baffling in the best way possible. My respect for both CSW and Louis! just went through the roof. Good job both of you for NOT resorting to personally attacking each other and your beliefs. A+.

^ completely agree with that.  Once I saw csw's post, I figured he'd get blasted.  I have a lot of respect for everyone throughout this conversation for remaining intelligent, respectful, and honest despite contrary beliefs.  Too bad most conversations on issues like this can get combative and only hinder important discussions

 

[Side note, I am Catholic and kinda conservative, but I think they got this ruling right.]

Because that's how it's been for centuries. 

 

Wasn't owning a slave legal for centuries?  Tradition does not automatically make it correct or morally right. Traditions need to be scrutinized to see if they still fit contemporary society, otherwise we'd still be stoning virgins and selling women as property.

A week too late.  Come back to the States, Louis, my love.  I'll go gay right now for the dual citizenship and EU passport.

Just bumping this post because SOMEBODY is an attention whore. Don't you ignore me, Louis. 

 

And in response to the slippery slope argument from earlier, and I say this completely seriously:  I don't care if people want to marry their dog or house.  Go ahead. You fuck that dog, though, and it's not marriage laws that you need to be concerned with.

its so gross to watch everyone in this topic pat eachother's backs over respectability politics jfc

its so gross to watch everyone in this topic pat eachother's backs over respectability politics jfc

I was thinking the same thing.

Most of the counterarguments in the last page or so are pretty solid. I think the difference lies pretty much solely in my religious beliefs and my notion of a marriage. Which I've already stated won't change. So this may be stating the obvious but the whole argument here stems from difference in my beliefs from a lot of other peoples'. 

 

RCT2day - I can see how you think they got the ruling right. From a political standpoint it is a great ruling because it calms the brewing storm of strife over the issue. I just don't agree with the morality of it. 

 

I think the point I'm most trying to make is that I value my beliefs enough to give at least some argument against this case which, based on my upbringing and formation of beliefs, is morally wrong. I'm not going to silently let it slide. Because I believe that it's not right. Any of you would do the same in my boat.