General Chat / Pope John Paul II Passes Away

Jelly: Pre-empted MLS soccer, that's a good one. Watch some real soccer.

When they start showing Premiership games on basic digital cable, gladly!

There is always the Fox Soccer Channel that carries lots of European leagues, but thats on some package thats probably lots and lots of money.

No Corky, perhaps I should've clarified. My party had been planned for six weeks. A housewarming. The fact that my friend wrote what he did on the Tiramisu was something unplanned, and frankly struck me as funny.

Fair enough. I was just pointing out how you looked.

Your last question is interesting, it would really depend. Say a person coldly murders another, etc... etc..., does something really horrible. But he truly repents (we'll keep cynicism out of this for a moment) and spends the rest of his life doing good, in an attempt to atone for his sins. Well, I think I would praise him. Honestly.

Of course, the Pope doesn't fit this scenario, because it's not like he called gays evil THEN tried to make up for it.

Now, perhaps it's because you've been around longer than I (you're older), and you know more, but I have a hard time giving true blame for anti-homosexualism (erm... you know what I mean by that "word") to the Pope. There are tons of authority figures who promote this. It's more of a religious ideology. I can't really blame John Paul II for keeping with it. Granted, it'd be better if he was more open, but I don't think he was as openingly encouraging evil as you claim, despite your sources. It seems like it was more rhetoric than anything else, like when Bush talks about salvation via some war, etc.. etc.. It's not that he hates them, he's just saying stuff.

I understand what you mean, but I still don't agree. You're more than entitled to your views, though. I'm not gonna call you a moron for them (). But considering so much good he's done, I PERSONALLY am able to overlook his views against gays.

And to be honest (and you can correct me), I don't think you'd be as intense in your viewpoint if you yourself weren't gay. Or, to put it in another way (in case I'm inadvertantly offending you), if he used his rhetoric to criticise another topic... say abortion... I don't think you'd be as fervent, because that issues doesn't directly affect you (at least not yet/I don't think it has).

For gods sake...he was 84. That's a huge life. I wouldn't be disappointed if my Grandfather died now, and he is the same age. You might say the pope is a figurehead in your life, but for a non religious person like myself, my Grandfather is perhaps a figurehead in my life to the same extent as the pope is in a Catholic's life. I can't see why you are so upset...he lived for ages!

Now, perhaps it's because you've been around longer than I (you're older), and you know more, but I have a hard time giving true blame for anti-homosexualism (erm... you know what I mean by that "word") to the Pope.  There are tons of authority figures who promote this.  It's more of a religious ideology.  I can't really blame John Paul II for keeping with it.  Granted, it'd be better if he was more open, but I don't think he was as openingly encouraging evil as you claim, despite your sources.  It seems like it was more rhetoric than anything else, like when Bush talks about salvation via some war, etc.. etc..  It's not that he hates them, he's just saying stuff.

I understand what you mean, but I still don't agree.  You're more than entitled to your views, though.  I'm not gonna call you a moron for them ().  But considering so much good he's done, I PERSONALLY am able to overlook his views against gays.

And to be honest (and you can correct me), I don't think you'd be as intense in your viewpoint if you yourself weren't gay.  Or, to put it in another way (in case I'm inadvertantly offending you), if he used his rhetoric to criticise another topic... say abortion... I don't think you'd be as fervent, because that issues doesn't directly affect you (at least not yet/I don't think it has).

I'd say the pope calling homosexual civil unions part of an 'ideology of evil' evidence enough that he's not entirely happy with the issue. I really don't see how calling that 'rhetoric' lessens the blow in any way - if the leader of a neo-nazi organisation promotes racial hatred on behalf of his followers, is his personal hatred not implied?

Also, I find it quite scary that you can trivialise his words as merely 'saying stuff'. This is a man who influences a large proportion of the world population with everything he says.

As for your last comment...are you suggesting that Meretrix's arguments carry less weight because he is involved? Perhaps that is true, but only to a very small extent. That's like saying the target of a racial hate campaign has is less reliable than the politician interviewed about the issue on the evening news.

Corky, i'm appreciative that you put your arguments forwards in a calm, collected manner (Freak, take note), but at the same time I find those arguments quite disconcerting.

When they start showing Premiership games on basic digital cable, gladly!

There is always the Fox Soccer Channel that carries lots of European leagues, but thats on some package thats probably lots and lots of money.

Ah, it's a shame to hear that. To be honest we just got digital cable + ESPNHD and all that jazz, and we've definitely taken advantage of Fox Soccer Channel.

I'd say the pope calling homosexual civil unions part of an 'ideology of evil' evidence enough that he's not entirely happy with the issue.  I really don't see how calling that 'rhetoric' lessens the blow in any way - if the leader of a neo-nazi organisation promotes racial hatred on behalf of his followers, is his personal hatred not implied?

To be honest, I think a lot of his statements are heavily influenced by the clergy around him. Certainly, I'm sure he believed it as well, but my point in calling it "rhetoric" is that this is the same sort of Catholic view we've seen for years. Homosexuality has always been called "evil" and "unnatural" in religion, and I feel that he was following through.

And I can't really compare the Pope to Nazis because Nazis had so much other evils they performed, whereas if you take away his mentality on gays, you can't say the Pope was evil or anything.

Also, I find it quite scary that you can trivialise his words as merely 'saying stuff'.  This is a man who influences a large proportion of the world population with everything he says.

I'm not Catholic, so maybe my word of choice was bad. I was/am under the impression that most people are affected more by the words of their immediate priests, etc... Certainly, the Pope's words hold high esteem, but direct communication is always more effective. However, I will concede that his words have great effect in trickling down, if you want to make that point.

As for your last comment...are you suggesting that Meretrix's arguments carry less weight because he is involved? Perhaps that is true, but only to a very small extent. That's like saying the target of a racial hate campaign has is less reliable than the politician interviewed about the issue on the evening news.

It wasn't an attack on his weight at all. More of a comment on Trix's passion in this. In terms of human nature, you're more likely to care and be inflamed when an issue affects you. And if it doesn't, then you're more willing to overlook it. I was just point that out, not saying Trix's opinion didn't matter because he was biased. It was a comment, not a statement of reliability.


Anyway, Trix cleared up a few things privately last night. I had interpreted this general sentimate to be a focused attack on the Pope, but it was more like an expression of general frustration over politics and society. Any number of things could have prompted such a passioned statement, but this just happened to be the so-called melting point. In terms of the issue of homosexuality, the Pople is one of many people to blame, not the only person.

No one's perfect, not even (in the words of Peter Griffin) the freakin' Pope. But in my eyes, given all good John Paul II did, it's enough to make him a "great" man. I can't really think of many public figures who've done more recently. It is certainly unfortunate that he chose to be so discriminatory against gays, but I have a hard time believing that his words directly influenced the masses to hate gays. As I alluded to before, while he certainly played a part, clergymen in general share responsibility for promoting this.

It is certainly unfortunate that he chose to be so discriminatory against gays, but I have a hard time believing that his words directly influenced the masses to hate gays.  As I alluded to before, while he certainly played a part, clergymen in general share responsibility for promoting this.

I come from a Catholic family, and trust me, the Pope's opinion does influence them. You should hear the way gays are talked about by most of my extended family. The church's blessing on these opinions just gives them added justification.

How about this for another of the Popes 'great' acts. Let's target Africa as our #1 area to grow the Catholic church, tell them if they use birth control they will go to hell and watch as AIDS runs unchecked thru the continent.


P.S. Corky, please tell me some of the things the Pope did that make you think he was such a great man. I think those deserve to be heard as well.

Ah, I just remembered one more thing I despise about the Catholic Church: You have to be a Catholic to take communion. How ridiculous and exclusive is that? In my church, a Methodist church, you only have to accept God. Also, annulments. Insane. There are Catholics that divorce and remarry, but then the Catholic Church fails to recognize their new marriage. Seriously, love is something the Catholic Church is really screwed up on.

...I only dish out what I receive...

And dishing it back out is somehow going to stop you from recieving it?

Your just adding to an endless chain of hate.




Not taking sides in the whole gay/biggot/Pope/wishing people dead argument, just saying...

Obituary.

A good assessment of the Pope's legacy, IMO.

Freak...you're a dumbass. I NEVER said he was evil, or did you just not bother to READ my post. I said he was a shmuck. Lots of people probably think the same thing of you, or me for that matter.

As for being a leader of "one of the largest religions" that's fine. I don't agree with organized religion, because people in positions of power tend to, either knowingly, or unwittingly, abuse that power, and someone always gets crushed in the wake.

I also NEVER said that I wished him dead (the almost no one comment was referring to one of me ex's).
So...no. Nothing hateful said by me about the pope. I wish I could say the same about him.

And he went a lot farther than just condemming gay marriage. In one of his more recent passages (from his new book I believe), he called gay and lesbian people a new ideology of evil (his words not mine). THAT sounds hateful.

that's not good, the pope was a great man. He spoke against communism, war, and other things. People still love God, but the pope is and now was, our eartly guider.

^ Umm, okay. I don't like communism, war, and other things so I guess that makes me a great man.

Oh come on, you don't even know what communism is. It was tyranny under the guise of communism he was fighting. Just like fascism is tyranny under the guise of democracy.

But anyway, I was a little offput by the 'witch is dead' comment too, but I can see why Meretrix would say that. If he was such a great man, he would have used his position to speak out against the anti-gay vigilance but he didn't. That's not really shocking. Anyone that age is still living with the prejudices and biases of a half-century ago. There's still an anti-gay bias in our society today so you can imagine how much stronger it would have been then. I think Pope John Paul II had a lot of good things to say. Things that people in power should listen to about disbanding authority and unifying nations. But he was also trapped in the kind of socially sanctioned bigotry that comes with the times. I feel sorry for people that never get past that. And I think it's fair to honor the good that he stood for. But nobody is excused for their bigotry even if it's socially sanctioned bigotry. A lot of people in his position could do some good, and one day I hope they'll be able to stand against the prejudices of their times as well. Nobody is perfect. No person is worthy of idolizing, but some of their actions may be admirable. We really need to get away from the idea that there are 'born leaders' out there and other people who are followers. It's just not true.

Get back on topic people! That is, soccer.

My digital cable package doesn't have Fox Soccer Channel. I wish I could trade some useless channel that I do get, like Discovery Wings or VH1 Country or some shit, and get Fox Soccer Channel in return (and NBATV, while I'm at it.)

Also. I don't have HD nor the money to get a HDTV.

I'm not even sure if I get either of those. I might also suggest Discovery HD Theater or whatever it's called. Though, I honestly don't think they have enough shows to be running such a station--they repeat a lot of stuff.

If I'm not mistaken though, didn't they show Premiership soccer on ESPN2 the other day?

Oh come on, you don't even know what communism is. It was tyranny under the guise of communism he was fighting. Just like fascism is tyranny under the guise of democracy.

Bingo.

But communism could never work in today's world, which allows for it to be so easily corrupted. Hence, this is why I generally refer to the destruction of such a political institution as a good thing.

And mantis, I don't need etiquette class over a message board. I personally find discussion over the internet and real life situations to be quite different. This is also a topic I'm quite passionate about, so I find it completely unfair to be singled out when several others posted in such angry and loud (you know what I mean) manners.