H2H4 / Week 6: Strangelove vs Ferocious Tigers

On behalf of the fairness with which H2H is conducted, I would like to argue that the unwritten "no posting screens" rule is unfair. In light of what's happened here, I am asking that the rule be reversed. I will post the same thing in the captains' forum so that it may be considered officially. This will be a lengthy post, but I ask that people read it, even if many disagree strongly.

Everybody can see the RCT2 park in game. That's never been an issue. No one will have any trouble loading it up and giving it a full look, because everyone owns the game, or at least everyone that browses the site anymore. Therefore, in RCT2 vs. LL matchups, it is absolutely necessary, CRITICAL, that everyone be able to see the LL park to some extent or another so that the playing field may be leveled. There is no other way to accomplish this than posting small screens of it, as Ed did. Even those will not completely do justice to the LL park, but they help, and that's something.

There is basically no question now that as a result of the fact that many voters could not see the LL park beyond an overview and two tiny screens, this matchup was decided in the wrong direction. The wrong direction relative to the actual opinion of the site and of those who vote fairly, as seen in the comments posted and in the stunningly sharp turnaround after screens were posted and the playing field was somewhat leveled. Whoever said earlier in this thread - I believe it was Ed - that the public had decided, and they had decided in favor of Strangelove, was probably mistaken. The ratio of comments is still something like 11-7 in favor of the Tigers' park and a few of the people that posted in favor of Strangelove have had their credibility questioned anyway. The flurry of votes after Ed posted screens - 9-1 in favor of Dragonland, I think - indicates that the voting would probably have swung that way as well had the screens been posted at the beginning. Maybe it'd have ended up Dragonland 50, Mamba Kilima (still a damn good park) 40. Even ignoring all that, the Tigers might have gone on to win in a barnburner as it is had the parkmaker's identity not been betrayed.

Obviously there has long been an issue that LL vs. RCT2 matchups are somewhat unfair because there are dumbasses who vote without even looking at the LL park. Now there is a partial solution, a mechanism that can somewhat level the playing field, and a mechanism which has been shown here to work. There is no harm in posting screens of the LL park; it will not cause people to be ignorant towards the RCT2 park, because everyone can see the RCT2 park, as stated above. Therefore there is nothing unfair about it at all, and the rule prohibiting it has no reason to stand. The only thing it will do is make the match more fair.

I therefore request that in future LL vs. RCT2 matchups, the captain of the LL park's team be permitted to post a designated number of screens of the park - perhaps five or six. Captains will probably have to promise to take screens showing the average of the park, not just the best spots. But for the people for whom it was an RCT2 in-game experience vs. a couple of tiny screens and an overview of the LL park, it will then be an RCT2 in-game experience vs. a number of screens that actually show something. The screens Ed showed revealed things that a number of people openly admitted they had missed. If anything it will still be a bit unfair in favor of the RCT2 park, but it will be a step in the right direction. What happened today shows that the voting public can be considerably wiser if they are better informed. Wiser, not as in voting for the LL park instead of the RCT2 because that's the dumbest definition of wiser that I've ever heard, but as in the wisdom that people seemed to gain today once Ed posted screens. "Maybe I should have given both parks a look." That kind of wisdom.

I'm not requesting this because I would like to see more LL parks win great matchups like this, or because I have any agenda like that. I'm requesting this because I would like great matchups like this to be fair.

Again, apologies for being long-winded.

Edited by Panic, 30 August 2006 - 08:44 PM.

you know no one is forcing you to play LL its part of the risk of going i think making it totaly fair imo would be having no screens or anything until after the voting is closed. i think most people are jumping to conclusions about LL parks because they are being shown screens. i think if a person is only able to see one of the the two parks they would be less likely to vote.

It is totally unfair I think. I agree with what you said Panic, but chapel could be onto something. It seems in contests like these that making a LL park adds to the gaming strategy. You take a risk when sending it in, hoping that the park opposing it could be a lesser park. By now, though, a captain would need to make sure the LL is AMAZING and had no way of being beaten. Which also there-in lies the problem of being unfair. I still think it adds to the competition and what would H2H be without the debating? I agree with what you're saying Panic, but I'm feeling that it's not as unfair as you and some others are making it out to be.

Steve, you could put the Holy Grail in an LL park and the fountain of youth and 20% would still vote for the RCT2 park.

The real Holy Grail? Or one made out of rollercoaster track? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. If you could somehow put the legit, real Holy Grail into a computer game, I doubt that'd happen. I think I'm starting to get what you mean, but even if 20% voted for it, that atleast means the LL park won for change by an 80% landslide.

I just got an idea. I realize nobody's going to do this. I'll share it anyways. Have two private forums. One would be for RCT2-only matches. The other would be for RCT2 vs. LL and LL vs. LL matches. The passwords would be created by the first person to view the parks. It would be on a sign in the corner of the park to ensure the viewer actually viewed the park. The passwords would be changed after every matchup or every week.

we got 78% with slime merdian so i am hoping the holy grail could pull more than 2% more.

My point Steve is that even if you had the best LL park ever in the history of the game, even if you did have something impossible in there like the meaning of life or the real Holy Grail, 20% of the people would still vote for the RCT2 park because they simply wouldn't realize what they're missing. That's the kind of handicap you're looking at with LL and it is significant. Put the Holy Grail in the RCT2 park and it wins 100% of the votes. It's the frickin' Holy Grail after all! I knew that was the case even before this round. I made an LL park anyway because that was what I wanted to build and I seriously don't care all that much about winning and losing. But we're not talking about just one match anymore, we're talking about the fairness of the game. And it's not fair. And just because the fact that it's not fair is common knowledge, that doesn't make it any more fair.

And you know why Slime Meridian got 78%. It was going against an obviously unfinished park without much in it. You could look at the overview screens in that round and tell who the winner was. Put that park against a decent RCT2 park, put it against Mamba Kilima, and you're already giving up around 20% of the votes just from the people who can't see LL parks and choose to vote anyway.

Is there a reasonable way to fix this? I don't see how. Posting screens from both parks is a start, but that's problematic. It changes the nature of the game a bit and gives "pretty parks" which mostly look good in screenshots even more of an advantage over less pretty parks with better rides. But then the nature of the game has already changed quite a bit since H2H2 when pretty much everyone could view all the parks. We're not even talking about a matter of preference here. We're not talking about the tools in one game being superior to the tools in the other. We're talking about a (supposedly) legitimate competition in which a significant number of the voters can only see one of the two entries they're supposed to vote on. That's already undemocratic. That's the very definition of unfair. Should LL players be expected to make a much much better park just to win against a decent RCT2 park because of that (estimated) 20% handicap? Or should they just suck it up and build in RCT2 instead? Because that's the choice they have now. And it encourages people to fill their parks with a bunch of crap just to win votes instead of building what they want. Maybe the whole thing is a joke to you RCT2 players, if anything it works to your advantage by handicapping other players, but it has actually become a serious problem. And in my opinion there's only one real solution: H2H5=RCT2 Only. Either you leave out the LL players completely or you have an unfair competition. That's the choice.

There is one thing however which is easy to change and I think would make this whole voting thing more legitimate -- don't reveal the vote totals until after all the votes are tallied. This is standard practice really, and I can tell the votes this season in particular have been influenced by having the voting totals visible.

Ed, like I said, my comment about the whole LL deal wasn't really aimed at this park. It was mroe of a random rant that I felt like spewing onto the itnernet, and quite frankly you shouldn't pay the least bit of attention to it because you and I both know that your work is amazing and you could shit out virtual LL gold. I just think it's gotten old how people say oh it's not fair LL is biased against. You have the option to use RCT2, so there's no sense behind complaining about a bias you were already aware of. (Another rant, don't take it too seriously cus I don't)

Ed, I think simple screens of the LL park can be more effective than you think, particularly in light of what's happened today. When I logged on this afternoon my first reaction was "Holy fuck how did that happen?" It's only a partial solution, but I'd prefer a partial solution to no solution, to the same way we've had it. I've seen two LL vs. 2 matches this year that have ended up just plain wrongly. The site as a whole has both times realized that in fact the LL park is better, but because of some dumbfucks out there we have to cope with the fact that the vote total is a mistake. With screens, Siege at Castle Grijs probably would have won. With screens at the beginning, Dragonland would have won.

Edited by Panic, 30 August 2006 - 11:34 PM.

Someone's bitter about losing, maybe? :' /> jp.

In all seriousness, maybe we should just put up an LL crack in the Behind The Counter section.



(and if it helps, I would've voted for KD if I didn't null vote 'cuz I can't play LL right now).

Edited by Trajan, 31 August 2006 - 12:06 AM.

I voted for KD.

I agree that something needs to be changed for next time about this whole LL vs RCT2 matchup. I think its getting a bit unfair because in theory the LL park has to be literally the best park ever to even stand a chance against a RCT2 park, which sort of defeats the object of 'voting for the best park'.
An simple idea that came to mind would be, for the next H2H, for an RCT2 win offer 1 point, and an LL win offer 2 points. I think that would make H2H even more competative and edgy. Plus i think that would encourage a few more LL parks to be built and raise the standard of the overall parks.

-X-

I will be honest with you lot

ED's park was amazing and i loved it so much, every little detail and it was all executed perfectly. Our park on the other hand, when X showed us screens in the forums i thought "Woahh!!" but in game i really didnt enjoy it as much as i thought i would. I really wanted to vote for KD but i just couldnt because of my team.

It's parks like ED's, Fatha's Tracid's etc. that make me want to build in LL and hopefully soon i will learn too because fuck me its taking me about 2-3 years, but i have finally realized that LL is a more beautiful game and for that i am really dying to build in it.

Great match up just a shame really.

Also ED i noticed with the rapids track that was built through land, the land was curved, now i wasnt sure if that was a glitch or a hack but it was bloody brilliant.

...this round made me physically sick to my stomach... all the more so since i was lacking internet connection this entire time and couldn't vote. I'm fucking dissapointed in all of you for this embarrassing shitstorm of a round. Be ashamed you fucking wads.

Ed: You pioneered. No one can take that from you, got it?

Edited by Blitz, 31 August 2006 - 02:44 AM.

Shocking

a good match up but a poor result.

Im not taking anything away from the strangelove park. it was a good park. it was just up against one of the most creative parks ive ever seen.

There's one solution IMO; Post your votes with arguments.

That will eliminate the 'screen-voters', and the people who can only view RCT2 parks.
Besides, the parkmakers get the benefit of more reviews for their hard work.

SF

Edited by Six Frags, 31 August 2006 - 05:23 AM.

Also ED i noticed with the rapids track that was built through land, the land was curved, now i wasnt sure if that was a glitch or a hack but it was bloody brilliant.

Yeah, that's a hack. Sortof. Actually, it's so simple that I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone do it before. You don't even need to hack to do it. I wanted a water tunnel not just a rock tunnel so I built the waterfalls and other rapids tracks into the cliffs under the coaster track. But, as you know, this produces a square tunnel which usually looks pretty ugly (unless you use the wood texture). But, if you raise a corner of land on the edge of the rapid track, you fool the game into thinking the rapids track doesn't extend past the wall and the square tunnel disappears -- leaving you to put whichever type of tunnel you'd like there instead. I did this first on the bridge actually to get those round tunnels. And then I accidently created the landbridge using the same technique and I loved it so much I used it again on the Dragonboat race. If you also want rapids on the square in front of the tunnel you'll need to use the codex trainer to manipulate the land where you've placed the rapids track (or just zero clearances), but otherwise you don't need to hack anything!

Cork is there any way of analyzing the download record to see who downloaded what parks? If it was a close LL vs. RCT2 matchup, you could just cancel the votes of all the people who were shown to vote but did not download the LL park.

Part of me thinks that we should just give the Tigers the win here, but that would probably lead to even more controversy.

I like Six Frags' idea more the more I think about it and it has been proven to work in last year's Finals. I think we should try either implementing that system or allowing screenshots. The one thing that's certain is that we can't do nothing.

Edited by Panic, 31 August 2006 - 10:05 AM.

The big problem here that you/we all try to find a solution for, is that voting can be based on anything, or at nothing at all.....
That goes for the RCT2 parks as well as for the LL parks, although indeed the latter seem to have a disadvantage, as many people cannot see it in game or don't know anything about it nowadays/never played it themsleves...

Still for both versions it goes that bringing out a vote, is not the same as really liking the park one votes for better:
people can and do vote just for their team,
or for their friends,
or for strategical reasons,
or indeed just because they like it more,
or just against another park because they hate the makers or the team,
or just because they want to "distinguish" themselve from the crowd,
or because someone they are impressed by has told he/she is in favour of a special one,
etc. etc. etc.......

Of course this is not the intention of the H2H-matches, and though many people for sure are more than thrustworthy, a certain amount just will never be....and I fear there really is no way to succesfully separate them......

Only being able to vote after making a comment, will certainly not be a bad thing imo, but in no way it solves the "problem" we are talking about...Easy enough to make a short comment, or to wait a few hours and more or less repeat someone elses' comment if you don't know what to say....

Only being allowed to vote after you have downloaded both parks, still does not give any guarantee that also the parks are viewed ingame before voting....(easy enough to have it sitting there on your HD, or just deleting it after downloading anyway because you don't have RCT-LL installed...)
I think what every parkmaker involved in H2H would love to have, may more or less be that only people vote who do have at least quite some knowledge of the game (RCT2 and LL) they are voting for and take the time to thoroughly view the parks before voting. But -up till now anyway- that is not the intention of this competition. The intention is that anyone who is registered can vote, and logically enough, that sometimes gives surprises which may seem a bit silly....but that's all in the game....
When I got involved in RCT some 18 months ago, of course I was impressed by things that by now I find a bit "easy" or "cheap" or "boring/uninteresting" (just because I have seen so much more of the game and also learned some things myself), but probably by then I would have voted for quite some other parks than I did now.
And in this way RCT (though H2h is called "a sport" by Corky , ) never can be compared to "sports" in which the "finishing results" are a hard result: like with swimming-racing-soccer-basketball.......you just clock the time and anyone who is a split micro-second ahead has the win, or you just count the amount of goals...
It is more a "sport" like gymnastics, trampolining, ice-skating.....with those they do have a "specialized jury" who interpretes the results (like the PT has) and in H2H the "jury" is everyone who just is allowed to vote (in this case"being a registered member of the site"), like with the elections in democratic countries: ripe and green can vote, anonimously, with supreme knowledge or with none at all, but that's just how the rules are (has great advantages as well as drawbacks, as I said before, but nothing can be perfect....)

The LL versus RCT2 thing seems to stay a problem however, also for me.
Even in the times when I can view it, I just know far less about it than I do about RCT2.
And of course that knowledge influences how one judges a park.
But even for people who do know equally much about LL as about RCT2, it will always be hard to judge them against each other.....seems a bit like "comparing apples and pears" like we say here.....both can be delicious, many basic similarities,...both being fruits and not differing too much in size and outlooks, growing on a comparable tree in the same climate etc., but many differences also on which you "judge" their quality........(I do love apples when they are hard and have a good bite, but pears that need a bite are unripe still...they should be softer and more juicy...etc...)

So I think we have to go with Corky ("it's a calculated risk to enter a LL-park in H2H nowadays"), or may be it could be a good/ fair solution like someone (X250? or who was it) suggested: have one or some weeks in which only LL-parks can be submitted. Would easily make the "judgement" more fair comparing "apples" with "apples" instead of with pears/prunes or whatever, would even make it more challenging -as well as difficult- for captains to form their team, and would (probably righteously) help keeping the beautiful and challenging LL alife....

Oh, and did I mention that..?
Making the votes invisible until one has voted oneself, seems a good thing to me also (enhancing the chance that people vote on their own thinkings/judging/merits instead of being influenced too much by others or voting for strategic reasons)